Recorded on Monday, September 15, 2025

TRANSCRIPT

Margaret Huang ’87 Welcome everyone. We're so glad to have you here with us tonight for this SwatTalk with President Jonathan Alger. Tonight's conversation is sponsored by The Swarthmore Alumni Council and we're thrilled to see such a strong showing already from our Swarthmore community. Here's a quick note on how the logistics will flow tonight. We're going to begin with about 30 minutes and an interview style conversation and then we'll shift to about 30 minutes of audience Q&A. Please submit your questions through the Q&A feature on Zoom and include your name and class here when you do it, if it's relevant. And also just to let you know, the chat function is disabled for this particular session. As I introduce John, we invite listeners to share where they're joining us from and their roles if it's relevant to the conversation today. Faculty administrator, alumni, student or community member or you might occupy a couple of those roles. But I say this, that I'm fully aware tonight that one of Swarthmore's greatest legacies is its alumni who serve or have served across all levels of education, including higher education.

Please join me in welcoming a distinguished leader, a constitutional lawyer and an architect in higher education, Jonathan Alger. And I'm going to be referring to him tonight as John Alger or just John. But John is the 16th president of American University, or AGU in Washington, DC, a role he assumed on July 1st, 2024. He previously served 12 years as president of James Madison University, where he advanced civic learning and achieved record fundraising, nearly doubling its endowment while external research funding grew over 90% between 2019 and 2023. Much of this growth came not from federal funds but from state support; philanthropy, private partnerships, and new doctoral programs. A strategic pivot at a time when many universities were losing ground. Those accomplishments helped JMU earn the prestigious R2 Carnegie classification for high research activity. Early in his career, John served as the Attorney Advisor in the US Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights, where he helped guide national policy on financial aid, harassment, and free expression. He also led a Reinventing Government initiative that modernized the agency's budget and structure. He then became the assistant general counsel at the University of Michigan, where he worked on Grutter v Bollinger and Gratz v Bollinger in two landmark Supreme Court cases that reshaped affirmative action. From there, he served as the senior vice president and general counsel at Rutgers University, where he played a significant role in the 2013 integration of most of the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey into Rutgers, one of the largest university mergers in U.S. history.

Today, John chairs the board of directors for the American Association of Colleges and Universities and the Association of Governing Boards Councils of Presidents. He also serves as the Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics and other national Commissions and councils. If I ended up talking about them tonight we would be here for much longer, and I know you want to be able to ask questions. John earned a BA with high honors and Phi Beta Kappa from Swarthmore College, and a J.D., cum laude, from Harvard Law School. On a personal note, he was born and raised near Rochester, New York. He and his wife, Maryann enjoyed travel, music, and hiking. Their daughter, Eleanor, is a screenwriter in Los Angeles. So please join me in welcoming John Alger. Hi, John.

Jonathan Alger ’86 Hey, Margaret. Great to be with you. And great to be with everybody.

Margaret Huang ’87 Yes. Thank you so much for joining us today. I thought I'd start with the question of and I know there's much going on in higher ed, but I'd like to hear your perspective on what's going well in higher education right now.

Jonathan Alger ’86 Well, thank you, Margaret. Again, thanks to everybody who's joining the call tonight and I appreciate having a positive question for starters these days, at higher ed, we don't often get questions like that. So thank you. But I think it's actually an important reminder about the role of higher education in our society that historically we have been one of our country's crown jewels and we don't want to forget that in the midst of all the controversy that we're dealing with right now. I still believe having been a university president for a number of years now, that we are a great pathway to the American dream. There are challenges, of course, for many people, economically and otherwise, but I've certainly seen a lot of first generation students and students from disadvantaged backgrounds who have had their lives transformed by coming to our colleges and universities. When I was at James Madison, for example, we started a program for first generation students in the Shenandoah Valley, who we identified in middle school and worked with them all through high school. They got full tuition scholarships to come to college, it was absolutely life transforming. We also, Margaret, since you and I were in college just a couple of years ago, right. A lot, a lot has really changed in terms of what we call high impact learning practices, that you're seeing more undergraduate research and internships and study abroad and capstone projects. Margaret mentioned the American Association of Colleges and Universities that I serve as chair of that board and that is our focus is on these types of high impact practices and how they impact student learning outcomes and the development of skill sets like critical thinking and information and data literacy, problem solving, teamwork, leadership, overcoming obstacles. So those are the skill sets that colleges are really focusing on and building lifelong, adaptable learners. And finally, we don't want to forget about all the great research that's being done. You know, Covid research is getting a bad rap right now, but the reality is, that did a lot for our country. We think about things like renewable energy, artificial intelligence, which I know my institution is doing a lot of work on. So there are a lot of great things happening every day, they just don't always make the headlines.

Margaret Huang ’87 Right. That's a challenge. I want to switch gears a little bit, thinking back to where we started. Your career path is one that is less traveled, and I think that's going to be interesting for some of the students who are listening. You spent time as a lawyer before moving in the university leadership. When did you realize that you wanted to make that career shift and go in that direction?

Jonathan Alger ’86 Right. Well, as you know, Margaret, I certainly didn't know that in college. I had no idea that I would end up working at a university, much less as a president. But, it was actually about 3:00 in the morning when I woke up in the library of the law firm where I had fallen asleep, not for the first time I might add. Don't worry, I didn't bill clients for the time that I slept. But, you know, those long hours at law firms and I saw a job ad at the U.S. Department of Education for lawyers, and I thought, who knew that they had lawyers at the Department of Education. They didn't come to law school to interview because they liked people that had some experience. So anyway, I ended up applying, got a job at the Department of Education, started interacting with people from colleges and universities across the country, and civil rights work at the office for Civil Rights and that's when I really fell in love with higher education and got a chance to work on broader issues, not just law, but important policy issues. And then it was later, when I was at Rutgers as general counsel, that the president of Rutgers, Dick McCormack, said to me one day, John, I think that you have the skill sets that you could be a university president and I will help you. And that was such a reminder of the importance of mentoring and a personal relationship. So if it hadn't been for him and his encouragement, I don't think I would be in this chair today. And so I'm really grateful that he gave me opportunities as a general counsel that he encouraged me. And it wasn't easy, but it was worth going through the effort and I really, really appreciate that personal touch, which is such an important part for all of us in our career development.

Margaret Huang ’87 Right, finding good mentors who see a possibility in yourself that you may not have ever thought of.

Jonathan Alger ’86 Exactly.

Margaret Huang ’87 So I'm curious, when you've been an assistant general counsel at the University of Michigan and at general counsel at Rutgers, how is that informed your approach as a university president?

Jonathan Alger ’86 Well, I think there's a lot you learned in law school and to me, it was almost an extension of our liberal arts education at Swarthmore, that was really helpful in transitioning to a university presidency. First of all, they talk a lot in law school about how to think like a lawyer, you know, how to analyze problems analytically, making clear arguments, developing potential solutions based on facts and evidence and research. Those things actually matter, right? I still believe facts and evidence and research really do matter. But also the importance of debate and civil discourse. Knowing how to engage with people who have different thoughts and perspectives and opinions in a thoughtful way. We learned how to do that at Swarthmore, and certainly that continued in law school. I always thought of my mindset, one of my favorite law school classes was, Roger Fisher negotiations class. He wrote the book ‘Getting to Yes’, that many people probably are familiar with. And I always thought as a lawyer, that's how I thought about my job, how to help clients get to yes, rather than just say no, which is sometimes the rap that lawyers get. And I have to give a shout out here, Margaret, to a friend of both of ours, Alex Gavis, my college roommate and still, very dear friend who's talked a lot about design thinking, which is now being used more and more in the law and in other fields, including all sorts of academic fields where people from different backgrounds come together in teams to solve problems together. And that's the kind of thinking that I actually got exposed to starting in law school, even though we didn't know what we called it back then. And finally, I'd say two other things: risk management, Margaret, you and I both know in higher education this is a big deal these days. And of course, as a lawyer, you learned that there's always risk no matter what choice you might make. So focusing on your institutional mission and vision and values as you make decisions and assess risks was something that we learned to do in law school. And finally, just understanding national trends and best practices in higher education. My legal career really helped me. I was at one point the president of the National Association of College and University Attorneys and had a great network of people all over the country, so you learned about what's happening in higher education and, of course, why institutions getting challenged and sued, which it turns out could be about just about anything these days.

Margaret Huang ’87 Right. John, it must be interesting to be your general counsel.

Jonathan Alger ’86 I have a very good one, I must say. Traevena Byrd does a fabulous job for it, but she knows that I'm going to ask questions that other presidents probably wouldn't ask.

Margaret Huang ’87 That's right. That's right. Well, so building on that, there's been some recent analysis that shows a notable rise in the presence with legal backgrounds. So today's attorney presidents not only lead major private institutions like NYU, Northwestern, American, that's you, Tufts, Fordham and Princeton, but also large public systems like California and Texas and also institutions like Johns Hopkins and George Washington. And even some smaller colleges like Gettysburg and Longwood are on this trend. Do you see some factors that might be driving more legal professionals into university presidencies?

Jonathan Alger ’86 Yeah, I think it is an interesting trend and I've noticed it as well, Margaret, particularly the last few years. And I think it speaks to several things. One is that the job and the responsibilities of college presidents have really changed in recent years. So you're not just a super provost or dean. I know presidents who have said, gosh, I wish I just had, you know, an English literature question to work on once in a while or an American history problem to work on because the job of the president these days, when you think about the skill sets that you need first of all, it's communications, it's strategic thinking, it's fundraising, it's government relations, it's, you know, board governance, legal issues take up a lot more of our time, than we might like to think. You think about what Harvard and Columbia and UVA and George Mason and other schools have been through. And then there's athletics, another area where at least if you have a Division I program like us, you spend a lot of time there. I will say, as a general counsel, one of the things that was great training is that you got to work with the entirety of the institution, the academic side and the administrative side. So it was really wonderful preparation to see the big picture of what was happening across an institution. So it turned out to be very good preparation. Now, maybe that's a sad commentary on American higher education, but I do think that lawyers that have that ‘getting to yes mindset’ can actually make good transitions as university leaders.

Margaret Huang ’87 Yeah, I'm struck by the fact that the environment might have been more kind in the past, but now there's a lot of wicked issues that are facing a lot of institutions right now. You're one of the rare presidents who's served as both the president of a public university and now a private one. I think they're it'd be interesting to hear for our audience some of the things that you might think they would find surprising about the difference in those leadership contexts today.

Jonathan Alger ’86 Yeah, I know that's a great question. And of course, it starts with governance, right? So if you think about public institutions, your governing board is typically appointed often by the governor, sometimes there might be a role for the state legislature. In Michigan when I was there, they were actually elected statewide, which was an interesting model. But that means, inevitably, that there's going to be political influence and partisan influence, perhaps in your governance structure, so that is certainly something that I had to deal with and address when I was in Virginia, because James Madison University is a public university.

Another area people don't think about is who are your lawyers? In some states, it's the attorney general of the state. In other states, like Michigan, we had in-house counsel that had control over legal matters. And so that can certainly make a difference in terms of who's representing you, in legal issues and creates potential concerns about academic freedom and institutional autonomy. Of course, at a private institution, you have different issues, right? You have private boards that are sort of self-perpetuating. But what you can have there is a different kind of politics where you might have wealthy donors and alumni who it may not be so much about D versus R politics, but about what their personal interests are that you have to deal with and address.

Another thing I would say, Margaret, is in this era where we're so concerned about access and affordability, public institutions, of course, get state funding, which is great, but you're competing with K-12 schools and other types of demands on public resources. And, of course, at private institutions we are and Swarthmore certainly fits this category, are very fixated on philanthropy and getting that support from the private sector in order to stay affordable. So it's really important for people to understand the money doesn't fall out of the sky for these operating budgets.

Margaret Huang ’87 Yes. And you did, I'm going to deviate slightly from the script here, you did some amazing fundraising while you were at JMU, in terms of pivoting. I'm just curious what sort of led you to that?

Jonathan Alger ’86 Yes. Well, yeah. When I got to James Madison again, it was a public institution. It had started as an all women's teachers college, which is what it was for much of its history. So it didn't really have a tradition of philanthropy, it didn't really have a tradition of going outside state government to seek support. And when I got there, I saw a university that was growing, that had, you know, business and engineering and many, many other fields, aside from education. So it was time if it was going to compete at that level and to become a research university, which it wanted to do, to think more broadly about sources of funding. And so we had to really develop that culture of philanthropy and it meant doing a lot of listening, meeting with alumni all over the country to ask them, what are you passionate about? And what, would you like to see happen for future generations of students? So we had a lot of those conversations, which were a lot of fun, in many ways, but they do take a lot of time and effort. But it did gradually, with the help of a lot of people, create that culture of philanthropy, we had a big campaign. We also, of course, were seeking federal research dollars, for the first time in many respects, and so it created a new and more entrepreneurial culture, I would say, within the university.

Margaret Huang ’87 That's amazing. So now we get to the darker part of higher education. There's a lot of pressure on you, unprecedented sized ones, including those related to the funding, which we just touched on, enrollment and academic freedom. What strategies and levers do you and your peers find most effective in navigating these challenges? Because you have access to the voices of not just your institution, but many other institutions?

Jonathan Alger ’86 Yes. Well, we do work together a lot in higher education. I mentioned earlier, of course, the American Association of Colleges and Universities, just as one example. They're a whole bunch of associations in higher education that work together. And we focus, of course, on lobbying at the federal level, within states. When I was in Virginia, we had a council of presidents that met regularly in D.C., we have a group that meets regularly and we work together to try to make the case for the value and the relevance of higher education. It used to be a pretty easy case to make, but I have to say, Margaret, just in the last few years, we get a lot of skepticism. And you've seen public opinion polls that have shown a steep drop in trust of institutions in general and higher education is no exception. We are still above Congress, though, so we're not at the very bottom of institutions and that's perhaps the good news. But, you know, so we do work together, across the sector and that's really valuable. Talking to other presidents and learning about what they're dealing with is really, really helpful. I have to say, getting alumni, not just financial support, but alumni who can speak up about the importance and value of their education as well as current students, that is extremely helpful to make the case. And these days, more and more, we're turning to try to get other partners that perhaps might be more trusted in some circles, like the business sector, to talk about why higher education matters and to help make the case for us that, you know, people expect college presidents to talk about how how great their institutions are, but it really makes a difference when business leaders say, we need this sector to be strong if we're going to have a strong national economy and be competitive globally.

Margaret Huang ’87 Makes sense. Are you okay with me shifting gears to the wonderful field of politics?

Jonathan Alger ’86 Certainly

Margaret Huang ’87 There are people there, there are critics, part of this trend is there's a lot of critics who argue that universities lean politically and indoctrinate students. How do you personally respond to these types of critiques?

Jonathan Alger ’86 Yeah, that's a great question. Whenever people say that we're indoctrinating students. I look at the alumni that I hear from and I think, well, we didn't do a very good job of indoctrinating if these are the complaints that we're getting [laughs]. But, you know, it is certainly true that higher education as a sector might be perceived as being more liberal than others. Now, some of that just makes sense when you think about the mission of higher education, right? Because we ask questions, we challenge the status quo, that's how professors get tenure and publish papers. And so there's a certain element that's sort of baked in, I would say, to the mission. Now I don't consider that necessarily partisan, but these days it may be perceived as such. It is a time, I think, Margaret, when we have to engage in some honest self-reflection, though, you know, in some disciplines, we know that there are faculty members who have very strong political opinions that they may share in the classroom and sometimes we hear from students that that makes them uncomfortable. The organization that I mentioned earlier, the American Association of Colleges and Universities, in response to a lot of this criticism, did a call for constructive engagement signed by over 650 presidents and we said, look, we know we're not perfect, we know that there are things we could do better, but we need to work on these issues constructively, and we're willing to do that with the government. And so I think that's an important step. I do think that many of us in higher education want to do that. And we want to start by modeling what we can do better. So, for example, at American University, we have a new civic life initiative and we're being very deliberate to try to bring people from across the political spectrum together to discuss and debate and really model for students what that can look like and frankly, for alumni and other members of the community. So I think that's important, we've got to be good listeners as well as good speakers and higher education, and we haven't always done that. I do think at this moment, there's a lot of that self-reflection happening in our sector.

Margaret Huang ’87 Okay. That is I mean it's a complex issue, right. Let's go to, how you're handling some of the, the things that pop up on campus, tensions that are coming around American University, probably like our campus at Swarthmore, has confronted tensions related to Israel, the Israel-Gaza conflict. How have you approached these challenges and what strategies have helped you de-escalate tensions and maybe foster that constructive dialog that you're talking about?

Jonathan Alger ’86 Yeah. Thank you, Margaret. So this is obviously you see that I have white hair. I'd like to say that I've earned all of these from dealing with these issues over the years. It is one of the hardest parts of the job right now because we're a microcosm of society and higher education. Any big issues, political or social issues that are playing out in our country or in our world get reflected on our campuses. And you can pretty much predict, especially in this age of social media, how quickly those things happen and take on a life of their own. So you mentioned, for example, the Middle East conflict, not unlike Swarthmore, American universities had to deal with that very directly. It's been a big issue on our campus. We have a large Jewish population, we have many students who are passionate about the Palestinian cause. So we had protests after the war broke out. We spent a lot of time first of all, working on our policies. We realized there were some gaps after I arrived related to free expression, including things like what they call - time, place and manner regulations. You know, when can you protest and how loudly and when you can use amplified sound and when you can use different facilities. So we did a lot of work on the policies with the community and said, okay, once we agree on what the policies are going to be, we have to enforce them in an even handed way. And so that was the conversation we had with our faculty and staff and students. It wasn't easy, but we worked through that. Another thing we did last year that I have to give one of our alums and board members credit for is when I arrived I saw there was a lot of tension on campus, and I said, we've got to develop a stronger sense of community. And he offered to sponsor what we called Unity Meals, where we brought people together to focus on our common humanity, and we chose very auspicious dates. The first one was October 7th, a year later, after the terrorist attack in Israel. Then we had one the day after the presidential election and then another one the day after the presidential inauguration. In each case bringing people together, we brought Jewish and Christian and Muslim students together on October 7th, we brought college Republicans and college Democrats together the day after the election, as well as the day after the inauguration, to focus not on the politics of the moment, but really stressing our common humanity. It's a lot harder to yell at people and vilify people if you're sitting across the table breaking bread with them. So that I found was very helpful. We also one of the groups, Margaret, at one point said, we're going to have a week of rage, on campuses across the country. And I said to my staff, very naively, I said, look, if they can have a week of rage, can we have a week of kindness? And we did. Turns out there's an International Week of Kindness in November. Who knew? And it was just an opportunity to really focus on the fundamentals of just creating community for and with one another. So that was a big success. I mentioned that Civic Life initiative, where we're really leaning into teaching the skills of civil discourse in Orientation, and then all across the curriculum. And I might mention Margaret, because we know it's come up this past week after the murder of Charlie Kirk, a lot of questions about what's happening on college campuses and what's happening in our country in general with the deep polarization. And what I keep telling students is college campuses need to be a place where we can live and learn and work together in peace. If we can't model that on a college campus, I don't know where it's going to happen in our society, because by definition, we're a place that should bring together people from different backgrounds. I remember, you remember when we were at Swarthmore, having friends who would debate and discuss issues who had very different political points of view, very different religious and economic backgrounds. That was interesting. That was a great learning experience. It wasn't a reason to vilify people. I think we need to get back to that common humanity and that's what we've been trying to do with American University.

Margaret Huang ’87 Are you finding that there is forward progress that you can see?

Jonathan Alger ’86 There is. What I found, Margaret, and you may see this, not just in colleges, but in our society, the majority of our students, I think, are really hungry for that. They actually want human connection. There has been an epidemic of loneliness that was supercharged during Covid. Students, you know, spend a lot of time by themselves in front of, in front of screens, in front of social media and knowing how to make human connections and how to interact with people who are different, that's something that students want to do. But some of the social skills were not being developed as well during the pandemic and so that's something we've had to deal with in higher education, is creating those spaces to bring people together. But I found the vast majority, not everybody, but the vast majority of students as well as faculty and staff are hungry for that. They want a better way. They don't want to be yelling and screaming. It takes a lot of energy to be angry all the time. So, I think if you can model a better way and you can bring people together and they can see that Republicans and Democrats can be friends, that people from different faith traditions can be friends, it gives them permission to do something that they really want to do.

Margaret Huang ’87 Great. I couldn't agree more. I mean, I called you when my daughter was in the class that didn't get their high school graduation during Covid. Our first semester was remote, so I personally experienced that. I'm curious now, this is something that I, I wanted to ask you personally, you've been deeply involved in intercollegiate athletics despite it not being a focus when I knew you at college. But how did athletics come to be such a meaningful part of your vision for campus life?

Jonathan Alger ’86 That's such a nice way, Margaret, of saying, John, you are not a great athlete like your dad, I know [laughs].

Margaret Huang ’87 No, you were studying in the library. Sleeping on your books, it's true [laughs].

Jonathan Alger ’86 But, you know, I always wish that I had been a student athlete and I've certainly always enjoyed sports. But, I will say that, you know, as a general counsel, first of all, I've spent a lot of time [stream interrupts] probably not surprising when you work at places like Michigan and Rutgers. And then at James Madison, we transitioned, within Division I to the highest level of football, for example, which was a great experience to learn all of that. But I also saw all the concerns with commercialization and financial interests that were really getting involved, particularly in Division I. And I served on some NCAA committees, like the infractions appeals Committee, where you see the abuses of the system happening. And so I realized, you know, there's work to be done, because I really believe that athletics has a place in higher education. And so you mentioned earlier, Margaret, that I serve on something called the Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics. And what we're working on is really focusing on the educational mission and how it relates to athletics. Why do we have sports in college? Is it just to have fun, just to blow off steam? Well, it turns out it's because many of us believe that it contributes directly to the educational mission. And so the work that I'm doing nationally right now, with the help of the Knight Commission, is to bring scholars together who are studying the skill sets that get developed through athletics. When you think about what employers want to see, teamwork and leadership and time management, grit and resilience, community and skills, problem solving, these are all skills that you can actually develop with and through athletics. And we actually have researchers that are looking at this carefully. So one of the national conversations that's happening is whether sports might be more parallel now to things like dance, music and theater performance based majors that 150 years ago were all considered extracurricular, that are now all part of the curriculum. So what can that look like? Well, it doesn't mean you just play a sport and you get academic credit. But if you tie it to kinesiology and health science and neuroscience, to sports management and sports law, there are ways to actually create academic programs. And that's what we're looking at now with the help of the Knight Commission, we're actually hosting a national conference next month at my campus to talk about this very issue. I think the time has come where we have a really broken system and Division I in many respects for many of our campuses that can't afford to pay millions of dollars to student athletes, but who do believe that they're getting a great education, to really lean into that and to be very intentional about what that can look like and how we prepare those student athletes for careers and for life.

Margaret Huang ’87 That is very timely for Swarthmore, because Swarthmore is also looking into investing into athletics and wellness. You know, I'm curious, you've been a university president now for over a decade. How do you keep your energy and focus up against all these challenges? I know your hair has turned white, but what are you doing so that you don't fall into a negative space as you're dealing with all of this?

Jonathan Alger ’86 Yeah, it's an important question. This is where having, you know, other presidents to talk to is really valuable to share - how do you keep going? Because there are hard days, like all of us, certainly in our respective lives and careers. But staying grounded, first of all, is really important. You know, as a president, it's funny, you have people that are so nice to you, and so deferential. And you also see the very worst of people that think, oh, this is my chance to speak truth to power and they will be as rude as you can imagine, because of your role. So you see the extremes. So you've got to stay grounded and not take it personally, that's where your family and friends really come in. And I really appreciate Margaret, knowing people like you and Alex and others, that could care less about what your title is, that just care about you as a person. And that is so important to have in these roles to know people like that. And I think also, you know, my family has really helped me with work life balance. I've always been interested in music and theater. And so we spend time doing things like that together, those are great releases. And then the lesson that I've really tried to learn that I've not been very good at is trying not to take things personally. When you're president, you get a lot of emails, with your name on them that make you sound like you're the worst human being that has ever, you know, existed. And it's hard not to take that personally, especially if you're an empathetic person. You want people to feel good, you want to make them feel better and you can't always do that. Sometimes you have to make hard decisions. You can't make everybody happy. And I've had to learn to let things roll off my back and develop a thicker skin and people that know me know that that hasn't come easily, but it's something I've had to work on throughout my career. And knowing other people that have been in these shoes has really been helpful in that way.

Margaret Huang ’87 I can imagine, you know, I'm going to try and get us to transition into Q&A. But I have one last question for students, on behalf of students - reflecting on your journey from Swarthmore till now. What advice do you offer to current students who are navigating such an uncertain future?

Jonathan Alger ’86 Yeah, that's a great question, and I do want to give a shout out to any students that are with us. You're getting a great education at Swarthmore, so stick with it. It's worth it. And it's worth it in ways that you can't even imagine yet. So first I’d say Margaret, you don't have to have it all figured out yet, right?

Margaret Huang ’87 That’s right.

Jonathan Alger ’86 Both of us, I think when we reflect back on where we were in college, we didn't have it all figured out. We didn't know what our career paths were going to be and if we thought we did, we were going to get it wrong. I would say in every job and situation, you should reflect on what you can learn from it, no matter how menial the tasks might seem to be. I mean, I had minimum wage jobs at a daycare center, a liquor store, as a bouncer in a concert tent. And all of those experiences have turned out to be useful in ways that I never would have anticipated. A couple other pieces of advice, I would say take the initiative in whatever jobs you have. Don't just wait for people and projects to come to you, but raise your hand, be that person that volunteers, build your network of contacts, that's going to be really important. And look for opportunities to volunteer, a lot of the best experience I've had has been serving on voluntary boards, starting, for example, at my church, but also working with higher education organizations. You get great experience because nonprofit organizations are always looking for talent and help. And so if you can get involved and engaged in things you're passionate about, not only will you learn and make a positive difference, but you'll develop skill sets that will be very helpful for your career. So that's what it means, I think, to be a lifelong learner and that's what Swarthmore students are known for.

Margaret Huang ’87 That's 100%. I'm going to switch to Q&A. I have a lot of questions that have come in, John. So okay. We've got a message from Emily Kerimian, and I'm sorry if I've butchered that, but class of 25, joining from the University of South Carolina School of Law. She says, I recently attended a Federalist Society talk with Ilya Shapiro, author of ‘Lawless: The Miseducation of America's Elite’. I was a bit disturbed by his surly attitude and contempt for northeastern schools and their illiberalism. Can you share your opinion or take on more conservative attitudes towards higher education and what impact, long term it will have? What do you think it means to be illiberal? Because I did not understand that term. Thank you tremendously for your time.

Jonathan Alger ’86 Yeah. Okay. Great question, Emily. And there's a lot to unpack there, right? One of the things that we have seen that's a real concern in our country is this, this increasing polarization. And it's not just based on geography, for example, but increasingly it's an educational divide that we've seen people who are college educated that might vote more, say, to the Democratic side, people who feel that they've been left out, that don't get higher education, that often live in more rural areas, they are voting more Republican. And that divide seems to be increasing. That is not a healthy divide in the long term for our country. I do believe that our colleges should be places that represent a variety of thoughts. Now, having said that, I do believe in facts and evidence and research, right? We have standards in higher education. That's part of what we stand for. To me, when I think of what it means to be illiberal, it's not about where you are on the political spectrum. It's about people that are open to different ideas that have that intellectual curiosity and humility that I think you need to have to be a lifelong learner. You know, if you come to college and you don't change your mind about anything, you should ask for your money back. That's what I think. So having said that, there are certainly concerns and all it takes is one or two anecdotes, right, about a professor in a particular class that made a politically charged comment, and all of a sudden the entire sector gets painted with that brush. And certainly we know that we're not perfect in that way and we know that there is work to be done to make sure that the Academy is accepting of viewpoints of all different backgrounds. But having said that, it's so interesting to me that a lot of these attacks on higher ed right now are coming from people who benefited from higher education, who went to elite schools and wouldn't be where they are without those education. So I actually think a lot of these people know the value of higher education. They just want it to be a reflection of their, you know, of their image. And that's I think one of the challenges that we have is that higher education shouldn't be a partisan football. I mean, if there's any issue to me, Margaret, that ought to be bipartisan or nonpartisan, it's education. And I've always believed that and that's why I've always tried to fight for providing opportunity for people of all backgrounds. But we have to recognize what's happening in our country and it's not just here. It's happening in other parts of the world and do something about that urban rural divide, about the educational divide. That means really focusing on access and opportunity so that people don't feel that this is a place that's not conducive for them, that they can't come, that they won't be welcome at colleges or universities. We have to keep working at that. And that's the work I mentioned, like the program for first generation students in the Shenandoah Valley that we did at James Madison, really trying to open our doors widely for people of all backgrounds.

Margaret Huang ’87 Important insight. I'm going to try and combine two questions. Jeffrey Heart asked you to address the current challenges during Trump universities. You're in DC, so there you have a front row seat. I'm also going to add Matt Clawson said in the environment of unprecedented attack by the current administration against both higher ed and law firms, there have been very notable and early capitulation and resistance. Some schools, like Columbia and firms like Paul Weiss were unfortunate trendsetters in early capitulation that have a broad negative secondary chilling effect. Why couldn't higher ed speak with a more robust collective voice early on?

Jonathan Alger ’86 Yeah, no, that's an important question, and certainly something we've been talking a lot about in the last six months. I will say a couple of things. First of all, the flood zone approach has been very effective in many respects and very challenging to deal with because if you are working in higher education right now, you know, I mentioned I was previously, of course, a general counsel, you are inundated with executive orders about diversity, equity and inclusion programs, right, about research funding, about international students and immigration issues. It's one issue after another, after another. It's very difficult, first of all, just to keep up with all of it and then to try to figure out, well, how do I combat all of these things and still keep the university running and do the things that we need to be doing? It's been a real challenge for all of us. And so, I think, while we shouldn't have been surprised, you know, Project 2025 was a playbook that we could all see coming. It came, I think, maybe faster and with more pieces all at once than some of us might have been fully prepared for. And so what's happened is, over the last few months, I think the sector has tried to figure out what's the best way to deal with this? Is it negotiation? Is it litigation? You know, is it conversation trying to do more advocacy for the sector? And frankly, we're trying all of these things in different ways. So there has been increasing litigation that's been coordinated through some of our national associations. And many of us have helped with that. But, you know, we thought that the courts were going to be a backstop and we're seeing in some cases the courts are very deferential, saying, well, these are political questions. We're not going to get involved. So that may not be a perfect avenue.

You mentioned, you know, some schools have been negotiating and it's certainly something that I think has been frustrating to many of us. And yet when you look at the situation where research funding is being withdrawn from hundreds of projects from life saving medical research, that if it gets interrupted, the whole experiment is ruined right? There are some really, really high costs that schools are facing in these situations and a lot of jobs that are at stake, as well as concerns about academic freedom. So I know that we've had colleagues that have faced very difficult circumstances in deciding, you know, do I negotiate or do I just try to litigate and, and hope for the best? The problem with litigation is it takes such a long time with all the appeals. I will say that the unified voice is something that we've been working on. I mentioned that call for constructive engagement, that over 650 of us signed. I will tell you, though, there were a lot of presidents that quietly contacted us and said, I can't sign because my board will not allow me to. And this is one of the dynamics, if you're at a public institution in a so-called red state, you're probably not going to be able to sign on or to speak publicly in that way. And we've seen a number of presidents that have been pressured, in that way. So we've tried to create some collective opportunities through national associations in higher ed.

And the final thing I'd say, Margaret, is this is where we need allies. It can't just be higher ed. We are, I do believe, an important sector for our economy and for national security, but other people and other sectors need to stand up and say, this is why higher ed matters. That's why the business community has been so important to us to try to get them to say we need the talent, we need the research produced by higher education. So it's a multifaceted approach that you're seeing right now in response.

Margaret Huang ’87 And, that's a call to alums, right?

Jonathan Alger ’86 Absolutely.

Margaret Huang ’87 I have a lot of questions, John. So I'm going to do my best. I'm going to continue to move. I may not go to them exactly in the order. But let's start with Anna Apostoleris Rivera, class of 13, education attorney and alumni Council member. Do you feel as though your background as a university JC and attorney generally puts you in a unique position with regards to your ability to resist political pressure or think in a lawyerly way about your obligations and duties as a college president? In a moment where we have some college presidents leaving their posts under political pressure and are misinterpreting their obligations, she's thinking specifically about Texas A&M and how issues surrounding how to teach gender studies may have impacted that decision. How do you feel like your attorney background has prepared you?

Jonathan Alger ’86 Yeah, that's a great question Anna. And I do think on balance, it has been very helpful because I'm certainly aware, legally, when it comes to things like academic freedom and free speech, you know, where some of the lines are when it comes to what's called DENI. You know, what I refer to as inclusive excellence, the work that we are doing to try to make our institutions as diverse and inclusive as possible. You know, this administration sometimes has offered interpreters options that go way beyond the actual state of the law. But I've read those cases, I've helped litigate some of those cases, so I know what they actually say. So I think one thing it's helped me to do is to ask a lot of hard questions before making decisions and not just accepting what someone else tells you the law requires you to do. At the same time, that risk management piece does come in that voice in the back of your head that says, look, you're responsible for your institution. You've got to think about what options are available to you at any given moment and what decisions you can make. I think something that doesn't make the headlines here, presidents get a lot of the publicity, but governing boards, I can assure you, are involved at all of these institutions. And sometimes it's the boards that are saying to presidents, you're going to do X, or else you're going to be out of a job. And that's one of the challenges behind the scenes that we're seeing. And unfortunately, sometimes, as we mentioned earlier, the boards themselves are subject to strong political influences. So that's one of the realities in higher ed that we need to be aware of and that's where presidents and institutions really benefit if people outside the institution speak up, if alumni speak up, because you may have powerful board members that are not willing to take on the administration, for example. And that's part of what I think is playing out right now.

Margaret Huang ’87 Cynthia Gray, class of 62, this is a very specific question. Has the federal government asked for any information about faculty and our students? If so, what has been your AU’s response and what percentage of university funding comes from the federal government for American University?

Jonathan Alger ’86 So, thank you, Cynthia. So we don't get nearly the kind of research funding that Harvard and Columbia get. We are considered what's called an R1 research university now, which is the highest classification. But our number is in the tens of millions, not in the hundreds of millions when it comes to funding. So it's, you know, it's still less than 10% of our overall university budget. I used to think that I was really envious of the Harvards and Columbia's of the world. But now when you see what happens when you're so reliant on federal funding, what it can do to an institution when there are these existential threats to pull all of it away. In terms of requests for information, and again, I knock on wood, as I say this, we haven't had, specific requests, from the federal government at this point, what we know is coming, for example, one of the executive orders had to do with admissions data for selective institutions where we are supposed to turn over information about applicants and their grades and standardized test scores, which presumably the administration is somehow going to analyze to determine whether or not you are discriminating on the basis of race or gender because they want information about, you know, the racial, background and the gender background of your incoming classes. That data has not been turned over yet. That's something that in the next academic cycle, they are expecting institutions to do. A lot of issues with that, right? Because lots of other factors are considered in admissions besides grades and test scores. In fact, we are a test optional school. A lot of our students don't even have test scores. So this data will be nonsensical to try to parse in that way. But those are the kinds of things that we're seeing.

There have also been threats about international students and getting more information about them. We have had to work through visa issues with a number of them. So some of our incoming students have not been able to come to us because their visas have been held up. We've been trying to work with them to allow them to start online so that they can be remote. But that is certainly not a perfect solution. So that's another area where we've seen some significant challenges is with international students.

Margaret Huang ’87 Oh my goodness. I heard that when I was in Taiwan at National Taiwan University. I have a question here from Amy Singer. Could you say something about faculty? I'm a university professor at an R1 university in History, which we have a soft spot for, you and I.

Jonathan Alger ’86 We do.

Margaret Huang ’87 My colleagues and I increasingly have the feeling that the well-being of faculty as scholars and as humans have dropped lower and lower on the roster of concerns, professional and human, named by university presidents. You actually didn't say much about faculty well-being in these challenging times. Could you speak to your efforts and initiatives that address faculty intellectual and professional well-being? Thank you for the thoughtful presentation.

Jonathan Alger ’86 Well, Amy, thank you for the question. And absolutely, faculty are the backbone of the university I have. I've never been a full time faculty member, but I have taught at several universities now. And so, it's a role that I have, of course, tremendous respect for and we have a strong tradition of shared governance, at American University, as we did at James Madison University. In fact, just this afternoon, I met with our Faculty Senate leadership to talk about these very issues about academic freedom, about their economic well-being, about their mental health and the challenges that faculty are facing. It's a stressful job right now, and faculty are under a microscope. They have students that could surreptitiously be recording them in the classroom, which is something that I dealt with at my previous institution. So, first of all, that tradition of shared governance is somewhat unique compared to other sectors, as we know. It's important because faculty, of course, make important decisions about the curriculum, you know, how we teach and what we teach. And that is the prerogative of the faculty that we are very careful to protect and certainly as president that is very important to me. I do not tell the faculty what to teach or how to do their jobs and that way I do everything I can to try to protect that role. It requires a lot of constant communication and that is something that we are working really hard at at American University. We try to have faculty and all the different committees that we have to make sure that we hear their voice and their input. So absolutely, faculty and you all remember favorite faculty members at Swarthmore who made an impact on your life. They are the mentors, they are the role models, they are the people that plant the seeds that then blossom, sometimes years later in their students. So it's a really, really important role. I've spent a lot of time just talking to faculty and learning from and with them, and have great respect for what they do.

Margaret Huang ’87 And John, you know, it's always good to tell your professors how much they mean to you. I have regretted not doing that myself enough. So, I think there's nothing like hearing from a student in terms of what kind of impact they've had on people's lives.

Jonathan Alger ’86 And in fact, Margaret, that's one of the homework assignments I've given at graduation every year. I tell students, write a thank you note and preferably to a faculty member who has made a difference in your life, when I was at JMU, I told them to write in purple ink, now that I'm in American University, it's red or blue. But I can tell you, I've heard from faculty members who've gotten notes and letters from students afterward, and they've kept them, right. I can tell you from students that I've taught, I have kept every single one of those notes that I have received because it's a reminder of why you do what you do. It is such a noble calling to teach, and I want to thank all the faculty that we have listening tonight, the people who've been involved in education. None of us would be here without them. And so think about that, if you're a current student, write that, don't wait until you graduate, do it now. And alumni, it's not too late to do that. So please, please do that.

Margaret Huang ’87 I think what you just said actually dovetails into a question from Saba, who's also from the Alumni Council, formerly, you mentioned that it was important to work with faculty, staff and students to update policies at your institution. The way these processes are often done can lack substantive participation in ways that echo the decisions that are made in society and leave us all wanting. How do you envision university governance evolving in ways that might also echo the truly democratic society nearly all of us hope for,

Jonathan Alger ’86 Right. Yeah, that's a great and complicated question, right. Because, you know, university governance is sort of messy, right? Because you have all of these different constituencies that all want a voice. And, you know, there are different types of decisions where different voices are going to have more or less weight. So, for example, if you're talking about the curriculum, of course, the faculty can and should be the predominant voice. Look, I have a legal background, I can't tell the biology and chemistry professors how to do their job or, you know, how to teach. I'm not qualified to do that. So different people in different groups have different roles within governance, within higher education. Students increasingly want a voice and when we went through the free speech policies at our institution, we did have sessions with students as well as faculty and staff to get feedback, to hear their comments, their questions, their thoughts and it improved the policies. Now, having said that, at the end of the day, sometimes you do have to make hard decisions and you can't always make everybody happy. I can tell you dealing with university budgets is one of the very hardest things right now when they're under stress. And there is literally no way to make everybody happy there. So you try to get input, you have a lot of conversations. I've started both of my presidencies with a listening tour. As we've often heard, you know, God gave us two ears and one mouth, and presidents, I think the most undervalued skill of all is active listening. And sometimes people just want to be heard. And that's, that's a lesson that I've learned over the years that just spending time with these different constituencies, hearing what's on their minds, hearing their concerns, is really important and valuable. But yes, it's complicated. We have lots of people complain about all the committees that we have, but they serve a function because at the end of the day, you want people to be able to see themselves in university decision making and strategic planning, for example. But it doesn't mean that everybody has an equal vote on everything. There are different roles to play, and that's what you have to sort through in leadership.

Margaret Huang ’87 John, we're over time by a few minutes. I do want to say that Hilary Damaser from the class of 80.

Jonathan Alger ’86 Oh hi, Hilary.

Margaret Huang ’87 Has on behalf of the reunion committee said please come to the 40 year reunion May 29th to the 31st. So maybe you can have an opportunity to cover some of the things that we couldn't get you. My apologies to people, there are so many great questions in the Q&A. I want to thank you for your time, John, and for your thoughtful answers. And I want to thank everyone who joined us and contributed to such wonderful questions. It's been a privilege to hear the insights today. We hope this conversation inspires our audience and we look forward to connecting again in future Alumni Council events. I think, I personally would want to wish all of you in this audience the very best going forward. Stay well, stay hopeful, stay joyful, and perhaps most importantly, stay connected. And John, do you want to add a few words?

Jonathan Alger ’86 Well, I think, you know, that's a great reminder, Margaret. These are challenging times for all of us. But at this time, it's more important than ever that we encourage one another and give each other that sense of hope. And one of the things I love about higher education, what gets me up every day, is knowing that, as we make mistakes, our jobs are hard, and yet when I think about what we're producing, these students that are going to make a positive difference in the world, using their skills, their gifts, their education, it makes it all worthwhile. So let's be thankful for that gift of education. Let's do whatever we can to ensure that future generations have those opportunities and do our part to encourage one another through these challenging times. Even people with whom we might disagree.

Margaret Huang ’87 John, so grateful for the friendship I got by being at college and meeting you. Thank you to everybody in the audience. Have a good night.

Jonathan Alger ’86 Thanks, Margaret. Great to be with you all.

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