Recorded on Friday, May 30, 2025
TRANSCRIPT
Jason Zengerle ’96 Welcome, everyone. It is great to have you with us tonight. Thank you so much for joining us for the SwatTalk about “Financial activism: How everyday people can help create a more just economy” featuring from the class of 2018. My name is Jason Zengerle, I graduated from Swarthmore in 1996 and I'll be the moderator for tonight's talk, which is being sponsored by both the Swarthmore Alumni Council, of which I'm a member and Swarthmore's Young Alumni Ambassador Program, which is a leadership volunteer group made up of recent graduates like Jasmine. Before we get to Jasmine's talk, I just wanted to go over a few of our preliminary pieces of business. For those of you who are new to SwattTalks, or for our regulars who just need a reminder, tonight will go like this: for the first half hour or so, Jasmine and I will be in conversation and then for the second half hour, Jasmine will answer any questions you might have. Please ask your questions by using the Q&A feature at the bottom of Zoom, and please be sure to include your name in class or when you do so. I will collect those questions and we'll pose as many of them as I can to Jasmine during the Q&A session.
And now that that is out of the way, I'd like to introduce Jasmine Rashid. Jasmine was born and raised on Long Island, the daughter of a Bangladeshi immigrant father and a Czech Italian American mother. She graduated from Swarthmore in 2018 with a special major in Peace and Conflict Studies. After college, Jasmine went to work at the Candid Group, a registered investment advisor which specializes in social justice focused companies. There in her role as the Director of Impact she's helped investors flow their money to predominantly women and people of color led, social justice focused companies. She's been a John Lewis fellow at the international education non profit Humanity in Action and a fellow at the Just Economy Institute, which is a nonprofit that supports financial innovators. And now she's an author. Last year, she published The Financial Activist Playbook: Eight Strategies for Everyday People to Reclaim Wealth and Collective Well-Being. And that's one of the main things we're going to talk about tonight, this concept of financial activism. But before we get into that, I had a more basic question for Jasmine. So in your book, you wrote about how gatekeeping is so prevalent in the financial world and given that gatekeeping, I was hoping you could tell us a little bit just about how a piece in Conflict Studies major became interested and started working in finance.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah. Thanks, Jason, and thanks everyone for joining. It's really, really great to be here talking to the Swat alumni community. So I went to Swarthmore actually thinking I would study economics because I wanted to understand Man-Made inequality. I had known a little bit about this world of finance vis-a-vis my dad who actually worked in the early years of my life as a stockbroker on Wall Street and I grew up in the suburbs outside of this financial epicenter, right. And I love my dad, one of my best friends, so I saw from his firsthand experience that that wouldn't be, traditional finance, wouldn't be a particular fulfilling career path for me. And it came with a lot of volatility and so I thought I knew kind of the limitations and world of finance from that limited experience and I wanted to understand the kind of broader macroeconomic landscape that finance operates in. So when I got Swat I thought I was gonna study economics and very quickly realized that my brain doesn't love equations and math. But I do love stories, and I've always been a writer and so, peace and conflict studies wasn't actually a kind of full on major at the time, it was something that I was able to major in with the help of really amazing professors. And that was where I got to deep dive into the research on inequality and really understanding how social change happens across time and space. I'll take some time to shout out some key professors in classes, because I think I really got such proximate experience that, maybe isn't typical for, you know, just the kind of standard college curriculum. So I got to do these inside out classes with Professor Nina Johnson, which took place in Chester State Prison and I got to really understand the economics of prisons, right. Everything from the ways in which our incarcerated neighbors have to charge up to pay inflated prices for basic needs like hygiene products and phone calls to their families while being paid, you know, cents per hour for their labor. I got to study the history of Israel and Palestine with professor Sa’ed Atshan and actually visit in person and understand the region and the function of things like controlling tax revenue and restricting banking access. I got to work with Professor Ali Smith in understanding gun violence in Delaware County and actually talk to residents who lost loved ones to gun violence and understand the profit incentives behind the proliferation of guns in our communities. And behavioral economics and sociology, like peace and conflict studies, got to bring all these different worlds together. And, you know, by the time I graduated, I had this kind of niche, kind of broad kaleidoscope of skills, in things like power mapping and social change theory and, the value of narrative and culture work in changing our societies. As one does I graduated with very little idea of how to actually transform that into a career. And I feel very fortunate that I was introduced to the world of impact investing, which, you know, is a relatively newer field and it's still developing and changing in many ways. But I was drawn by this desire to use the tools of finance like equity and debt to really reckon with the history of extractive finance within our society and explore how we can power the social movements that I got to study so in-depth at Swarthmore, to not only divest from the types of things that harm our communities, but also how to proactively invest in what our communities deserve from infrastructure to businesses and so on.
Jason Zengerle ’96 So one of the first things you did at the Candid Group was this effort to de-bank, I guess, private prisons, basically. Can you just tell that story a little bit about how you came to work on that, what it involved and just and just how it made you think about financial activism?
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Totally. Yeah. So that was, you know, again, the kind of for any parents who their kids take a major and they're like, I don't know what they're going to do with that, the universe will show you because kind of immediately after graduating in the summer of 2018, you know, I was graduating into this world where a lot was happening in the news like it is today and every day, but particularly the news of family separation and migrant tension under Trump's, immigration policy was all over the news. It was really like on folks’s screens and newspaper imagery and social media and for the first time at this scale in history. And I wanted to get involved and just saw that there was a lot of organizing happening, both organically and then eventually more structured, as this group called Families Belong Together, which essentially was a coalition of over 250 organizations across the US who were positioning for the reunification of families and the divestment from private prisons. And so what I learned and what many of us learned in that time was, you know, we were seeing these massive detention centers popping up, what seems like virtually overnight and again, kind of asking and prodding some questions, like, how is this happening? Who is actually financing this? And the kind of jarring answer to that question was that the American people are. Not only by virtue of our tax dollars, but also by virtue of where we bank, where we, you know, deposit our savings. It is the big banks that we all kind of know by name that were directly investing into these immigrant detention centers that were run by private prisons. So for profit corporations where over 70% of migrants were being detained at the time. So there was a literal heads for beds profit motive to lock up as many people as possible for as long as possible, as cheaply as possible, i.e. leading to many human rights violations.
So the campaign exposed me very quickly to the kind of multiple strategies that need to happen for mass social change on one hand, we're doing these really creative and amazing public campaigns. In 2019, I helped run a protest here in the Bay area at the Wells Fargo in San Francisco headquarters to draw attention to the reality that it was these banks that are separating, you know, moms and kids. And then we, at the same time, were also able to get on the phone with, for example, the human rights lawyers and the ESG representatives at these major banks to use the language of finance and say, like, hey, this is, you know, material risk for your business, right, to be associated with this really big social issue. You have the opportunity right, to be a leader and to say, we're no longer going to bankroll and profit from this industry. And, you know, this type of organizing was seeded honestly for years and years to kind of get us to this point where we were able to mobilize at this scale, but it seems like pretty quickly, once we had J.P. Morgan Chase kind of publicly make comment that they would no longer bank the private prison industry. Then Wells Fargo followed and Bank of America followed, then Barclays, then SunTrust. Right. Like a domino effect, so on and so forth. And I think to everyone's surprise, over $2 billion, the majority of the industry's financing was announced to no longer bank the private prison industry. And it was, you know, far from perfect, there was still and continues to still be a long way to go. But I think that it really, for me, was kind of an early win to demonstrate the power of collective action and the ways in which we can use the tools of finance and the understanding of finance to actually make massive change and shift billions of dollars out of these harmful industries.
Jason Zengerle ’96 How do you think that would work today? I mean, given the political climate in 2025 versus 2017 or 2018, especially with, you know, sort of corporate America and the Trump administration, I mean, the way that sort of corporate I mean, Jamie Dimon, really kind of bending the knee a little bit more than they were in 2017, 2018. Do you think that that kind of naming and shaming approach would have the same impact? Or do you think maybe these banks and corporate actors would be a little bit more wary of getting on the wrong side of the administration for fear of retaliation? I mean, how does that sort of tactic work when corporate America is, you know, afraid, for lack of a better word, of the administration? I mean, what do you think about that?
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah. I mean, so let's take a different example, right, we can see the ways in which major corporations like Target are rolling back DEI, right. Because of the administration's focus , we're seeing the kind of responsive backlash of consumers, particularly led by financial activists in the world of religion and spirituality, so a lot of churches and congregations who call for mass boycotts, right. And so I think that there's no such thing as, like a plug and play social change strategy. It has to do the work of power mapping and taking into account all the different elements, both at the large scale, as well as who are the individual players within that and so, not totally answer your question because there is a lot that has to change, including the private prison corporations rebranding so that they can fly under the radar a little bit more and sneak into people's investment accounts without being as detected. Because prior to our organizing in 2017, being able to invest in prisons wasn't something that was screened out of environmental, social and governance screens. And so that's kind of a win that we were able to add where today, it is something that is screened out if you are investing socially responsibly.
Jason Zengerle ’96 Got it. You know, in your book you write about both financial literacy and financial activism. And I was hoping you could just explain the distinction between it, because it seems like financial literacy is kind of necessary to be involved in financial activism. But if you could just, you know, explain the difference in the relation, that would be, I think, helpful to the audience.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Totally. Yeah. So I think both financial literacy and financial activism try to give us tools to navigate a financial system that, in my opinion, is inaccessible, convoluted, and inequality producing by design. And so financial literacy, you know, when people say that they're usually referring to an individual's knowledge and capacity to understand particular concepts, it's the ways in which we can navigate the financial system that we're given. Whereas financial activism asks us to think about going beyond just navigating to how do we actually change the system to work for us so that we don't need to just like tips and tricks, our way out of precarious financial situations in the first place. And so essentially, financial activism is a practice of using your money and influencing the money around you by virtue of what you earn, spend, save, invest, give to challenged systems of injustice and build collective well-being.
And I will also say that I think that it's important that financial literacy when taught, and I've been really excited to see this changing, financial literacy is often taught from a lens of deeply individualistic and sometimes kind of shameful premises, right, of like, do this, don't do this without kind of taking into account the systemic issues, past and present, that have made it intentionally difficult for women and people of color to build wealth. And so I've been really thrilled to see more innovation in the financial literacy space that I think actually gets us closer to the core work of financial activism, which is culture change.
Jason Zengerle ’96 Where do you see that innovation? Is it online? Is it in print? Or you know, where like, how does it happen?
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah, yeah, I think just the proliferation of diverse voices, everywhere, the publishing industry, which I have been fortunate to get to know more well through this experience as well as more organically on social media, people, again, being able to to share their insider experiences and just bring a level of transparency to what it means to navigate financial systems in the economy in this time. I think that it's helpful when you have people who live closer to your lived experience, whether that's by virtue of age or socioeconomic status, who are able to give relevant information, because we know that the same financial literacy advice that may have been really helpful a few decades ago is a little bit more nuanced and complex now. And so, just people taking into account the ways in which it actually really matters to have financial literacy that is reflective of one's lived experience.
Jason Zengerle ’96 So reading your book, I encountered this term that I'd never seen before, but sort of made intuitive sense to me and that's money trauma. And I was I was hoping you could explain a little bit about what money trauma is and you know, whether you think it's like, particularly acute among millennials and Gen Z or whether it's, you know, affected and afflicted, I guess, all generations and just just talk a little bit more about that because I was like, I stopped on that and I was like, oh, that kind of that makes sense. But I think it would be very useful to hear a little bit more about it.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah. Thanks for that question. So money trauma kind of broadly is just the emotional and psychological distress tied to financial experiences. And the word trauma I think is important to unpack because oftentimes we hear trauma and think of, like big T trauma as like a singular accident or, you know, an act of violence, but trauma can also be understood as anything that threatens our sense of safety and identity. And so in the context of money, this has absolutely existed across generations, right? For some of us, our ancestors, were valued as commodity, right? Like our labor, our bodies, and so the money trauma spans all generations and every generation faces different financial stressors. But I think that millennials and Gen Z are naming it and sharing it and seeking to heal it more openly than previous generations. And I think that visibility I mean, let's name the ways, right? There's so many, so many factors, I think, that make it so visible for Gen Z millennial, just given the current economic reality of cost of living outpacing wages, you know, we and I say we because I'm, I know that you were class of 96, I was born in 96 [laughs]
Jason Zengerle ’96 Thanks for rubbing that in
Jasmin Rashid ’18 But I'm a zellenial so I am, you know, the spanning these two different generations and kind of seeing the ways in which there are nuances between them. For example, millennials, we entered adulthood during the 2008 recession, right. And Gen Z are entering, you know, the economy in this post-Covid economic upheaval and inflation and whatever this is right now. And, understanding that the traditional passive stability, like homeownership and career growth and savings are just different. There is a lot of nuance to navigate. There is a lot of chronic stress and anxiety. And we also, like we already talked about, have social media. Right. That fuels not only elements of comparison and, and shame and, you know, mass consumerism, but also helps make visible and gives people platforms to share more about the ways in which the banking system is not working for us, share what makes, you know, understanding that we have different trends around wanting deep transparency and visibility into everything from where our clothes are made to what our textiles are funding. And also have like spaces to kind of unpack the inherited trauma, right. The idea that so many of us are carrying financial beliefs and anxieties that were passed down to us from parents or grandparents. And that's everything from just kind of core money scripts around someone being raised in a, in a mindset of scarcity, where maybe they actually didn't have deep financial scarcity, but that that idea of scarcity was something that they were raised with, right? Money is something that's meant to be spent, or money is something that's meant to be saved. Like we all have these different kind of orientations that come from our upbringings around it and, the good news of all this visibility means that, you know, when we're breaking the silence and these taboos, we're redefining ways to to build collective wealth and and a culture that is less taboo and more trauma informed. And so, that's something that does give me hope is the, the, millennial and Gen Z visibility towards money, trauma, because I think it'll heal all generations.
Jason Zengerle ’96 But do you think social media exacerbates it or alleviates it? I mean, I just think of, like, you know, I mean, I'm old, obviously, but when I look at Instagram, you know, you see everybody's vacation pictures and kind of consumption pictures. And I guess I see more of that than I see kind of, you know, transparency and collective action and sort of, you know, revealing the trauma and the like. I mean, it sounds like you think that there's an upside to social media here in terms of, you know, being an outlet where people can kind of get together around this sort of thing. Is that my understanding correct?
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah. Yeah. So does the social media exacerbate or heal money trauma? The answer is yes. I think it depends on your particular algorithm, right. And the ability to the degree to which we can choose who we follow and don't follow. I would say my algorithm, fortunately, because I am in this space of both activism and financial literacy, has shown me movements that I've been able to tack on to write everything from, you know, petitions to sign, to raise garment workers wages in Bangladesh, right. Something I would have not otherwise known about, to understanding, you know, there's trends that go around of reminding people the simple things like, oh, if you're if you're starting a job at an employer who has a 401K, you know, employee, employer sponsored matching plan, like that's actually not something that a lot of people, the majority of people tap into. And so having someone remind you of that, when they're not going to remind you at the level of HR because they're busy doing other things, is helpful. So yeah, it is like social media in all contexts is neither purely good or evil, it's a tool. And that's kind of funny too. Yeah.
Jason Zengerle ’96 Are there particular voices or like particular people you would recommend? You know, folks like me who are interested in this check out, I mean, because especially like when it comes to, you know, this space and like financial literacy, I mean, you know, I think of, like, people like Susie Orman. Is that her name? Who are not terribly credible in my book, but I think I think, you know, I think especially older people have a fixed idea of what people in this space kind of look like and what they're saying and the values they're advocating for. But it sounds as if there is a whole new, you know, generation, a cohort of people who have a very different take on this and could, you know, lead things in a different direction. And I don't want you to necessarily like, shout out, you know, everybody. But if there's just like a couple particular people you think would be valuable for people like me at least to know more about.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah. Definitely in the book I do tell quite a bit. I love kind of shouting out like to your point there are so many different creators and innovators out there who are supporting financial activism and not everyone is going to relate to your lived experience. But I will say that actually being able to plug into not just content creators, but to organizing hubs to places like New Economy Coalition or, gosh, there's so many dissenters or, for folks who may be, you know, trying to navigate what it means to be, supporting a younger generation, Third Act is a really powerful place that specifically talks about divestment from fossil fuels and what that means for the livability of our planet. And so, in addition to content creators, I want to shout out the movement organizing groups who do have social media platforms and are able to share their learnings and active campaigns that people can join.
Jason Zengerle ’96 So in the book, you have tons, I mean, it's a really good book. People want to buy it. They should get it, but don't get it at Amazon, right? Bookshop.org I think, yeah? So I mean, the book is very, you know, sort of hands on practical and you had a lot of, you know, just kind of, you know, almost sort of instructions on how to do this stuff. One thing that you wrote about was just how and how important it is to think about where you're doing your banking and which types of banks people should choose. And it seems like a very basic thing, but I don't know if everybody who's watching this has necessarily thought about it and knows the distinctions. And I was just hoping you could talk a little bit about why it's important and what the different options are and what you would recommend for that.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah. Banking is not a topic that I was particularly interested in before like I mentioned that massive campaign we did with Families Belong Together. But banks hold so much power, in how societies are shaped and really which industries are funded and which are not. And so big banks are often financing many amazing things at the same time, financing things like fossil fuels, private prisons, weapons manufacturers, things that go against many of our direct values. But again, they're leveraging and using our savings. So when you intentionally choose to deposit, with a credit union or a community development bank or a Bipoc led financial institution that is smaller scale and that is focused on a particular community or affinity group, you're more likely to be supporting things like affordable housing and small business loans that are not extractive, right, so that people don't have to go to predatory lenders. You're investing more directly into economic justice at the local level. And that is, you know, these banks, especially credit unions, are mandated to design to serve their members, whereas a big bank is designed to make as much profit as possible for its shareholders, who are large investors, right, as opposed to their customers. And so you don't see things like exorbitant… I'm not sure if I know how to pronounce that word.
Jason Zengerle ’96 Yeah, I have the same problem actually exhort exorbitant, exorbitant fees. Anyway, one of us got it right. Yeah.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Overdraft fees, right. There's billions and billions of dollars in overdraft fees that big banks will slide in and, you know, these are intentionally meant again to bankroll and to profit to give profit to their shareholders, which is just not the design of banks that are intentionally meant to be for communities. So I also want to highlight the public banking movement, which is pretty nascent in the United States. The United States has one public bank in North Dakota that's been functioning successfully for quite a number of years. But, internationally, public banking, again, when you have a bank that is specifically designed for community well-being, you're going to see them investing in much different things. And so the public banking movement is something that is very much in early stages but growing throughout the United States, even just passing legislation at the local levels to explore what it would take to institute public banks. I think that is the future of what it means to invest in communities needs to be thinking about actually having community ownership of the infrastructures and institutions, where funding is possible.
Jason Zengerle ’96 Why did it start in North Dakota?
Jasmin Rashid ’18 That's a great question, actually. That I don't immediately have the answer to. I just know that they have been successful over these decades, there’s like a case study.
Jason Zengerle ’96 In India. Is that one of the countries where it's big?
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah, I've heard of it. Yeah.
Jason Zengerle ’96 Okay. So ESG, you know, has obviously become a very hot button issue, especially on the right. And now, you know, in office, it seems like there's been a little bit of a retreat from that. And it seems like ESG is pretty important in terms of financial activism, but at the same time, it's, you know, very much in the crosshairs of conservatives. So it's just, you know, wondering what you saw as its future. I mean, how critical is it to what you're trying to do and what are some strategies you think that you would try to employ to make sure it stays around? Or change it in some ways to take it out of, you know, conservative crosshairs? It just seems like something that's a little bit in peril. And I was kind of curious how you thought about that, given how important it is. It seems like the work you want to do.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah. So, at its core, ESG, environmental, social governance is about how do we manage risk and long term impacts. And really responsibility for investors with everything from impact on climate to worker treatment to governance. And I think that this backlash is showing us that it is important, you know, wouldn't be getting backlash if it wasn't important. But I think similar to diversity, equity, inclusion, these aren't necessarily the goals of social movements. Right? Having less bad investment options is very different than proactively investing in things like worker ownership or, you know, community investments that actually build wealth in, in underserved communities. And so I think this is another area where, perhaps we have an opportunity to take a look at what the targets are for investing because to me, again, ESG is kind of the first step into what it means to invest in a less bad world. But it often does very little to move the needle in terms of transforming our financial systems. ESG is often, you know, again, about screening out the bad rather than funding the good. And so, it's heartbreaking that it's under such attack when for many of us, on the left, it actually isn't that radical of a concept. But, I think just like anything, this is going to test us and really expose who is dedicated to sustainability, resilience and like, fundamentally good business strategy, and who we need to leave in the old extractive economy.
Jason Zengerle ’96 Have you been surprised by any, you know, particular actors? Either in good or bad ways? You know, on this question of ESG and DEI I guess as well, just because it does seem like there's obviously been a backlash and there's been, to a certain extent, a retreat. But it does seem that there are some people in the sector who are saying they're going to stick with it. And I was just kind of wondering, you look at this much more closely than I do, just who, who has surprised you in good and bad ways on this stuff.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah. So it's funny, we have this saying in movements, no permanent enemies. And, you know, the same kind of applies to allies, too, right? Where we especially when we're talking about corporate partners or institutions that are premised on, on profits for a few, just by virtue of how they're structured. We always need to be cautious and be looking at the ways in which their actions align with their values or don't. And so, yeah, I won't maybe name particular, particular actors at this time and I think that's because it's changing constantly every day. But I think reminding ourselves that, you know, our loyalty is to movement, right? Our loyalty is to realizing a vision in which there is fundamentally more stability and self-determination and agency for all people, as well as sustainability for the planet. And that matters way more than whether or not you know a particular corporation we see as good or bad. Because ultimately, like, I feel like that can often serve as a distraction.
Jason Zengerle ’96 That makes sense. If people have questions, they should put them in the Q&A section. And I will ask them as they come in. But, for now I have some more questions, so I'll just keep on asking them. But feel free to chime in with your own. So how do you think the growing financial uncertainty at this moment and just I mean, it's hard to even summarize how uncertain things are, but how do you think it changes The Financial Activist Playbook that you, you know, you devised and you published last year. I mean, obviously, you know, it's supposed to be a long term playbook, but it does seem that the economic situation, the financial situation is just so different than it was just a few weeks ago, much less, you know, a few months ago. I mean, do you see that there are more risks right now for what you're trying to do, more opportunities. How do you react to what's going on?
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah. So for better or worse, I decided to make this into a book rather than, you know, just, something a little bit more fleeting because I think the content is pretty evergreen, to equip us and us in the most extensive sense to be able to assess situations and opportunities for change regardless of who the particular dictator of the moment is. And so financial uncertainty definitely amplifies the urgency and the stakes, right, as people face massive inflation and job precarity and debt. I think the core message to the Financial Activist Playbook is that we need to meet folks where they are, you know, rooted in survival and thriving, right? And not just in abstraction, because the risks are real, but so is the opportunity to build new systems. We know a benevolent billionaire philanthropist isn't going to swoop in and save us at any moment. And I think in some ways, like the cracks in the dominant economic system are being revealed more deeply of just how fragile these systems are, how man made they are, and an open space to organize around alternatives like corporate ownership and community lending, and regenerative investing. And I think that activism always needs to be both protected, right and practical, but also deeply imaginative. And we are living, you know, maybe in times that to some people may have not been, conceivable. Of course it depends on where your orientation and lived experiences, but this is really a time where we need to be thinking beyond just kind of the you know, stereotypical finance bros as the only people who can engage with finance, right? We actually need people from all walks of life to be shaping what it means to live, work, play, and live in an economy. But we need to demystify the strategies not only for wealth building, but also power shifting so that more people can plug in even if you're not an investor or a multi-millionaire. And, you know, in times of uncertainty, what we know is that solidarity is our best strategy, right? The future is in guarantee, but collective action is our best bet to shape it. And that means building networks of trust and shared risks and aligned capital, which is fundamentally what the playbook is about. And again, so I think it spans across time and space and, for better or worse, I think it will continue to be relevant even in maybe the optimistic times ahead.
Jason Zengerle ’96 So, I mean, you said we shouldn't be depending on sort of a billionaire philanthropist to come in and save us, but Jim Saylor, class of 90, has a question sort of along those lines, a little bit different. But he says, you know, I'm curious if you think that personal philanthropy fits into your playbook and if you think people should think about it differently than they often do.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah. Great question, Jim. So there's eight strategies of the playbook. And one of those strategies is giving and receiving. And it's very intentionally named giving AND receiving to try and push back around the traditional paradigm of someone is a giver, someone is a receiver, which we know is rooted deeply, in inequity and colonialism, and in kind of systems of extraction, that really challenge kind of, our sense of humanity and who is, deserving and worthy of receiving finance, for receiving financial support and who has the ability to give it. So in giving and receiving, as a chapter, I remind people that the act of philanthropy and giving is so critical to our social movements. And at the same time, we often forget that the vast majority of gifting of donations is not from foundations, it's not from multimillionaires, it's not from government entities, but from everyday people, right? Working and middle class people represent 70% of all giving that happens. And that extends obviously beyond the kind of traditional 503c3 taxation giving, it also talks about things like remittances and mutual aid and just ways that money is informally circulated in kind of the gift economy. But things that I encourage people to think about who are interested in kind of deepening their philanthropy and, one resource for this is called Justice Funders I think, has a lot of great learning tools for people who already are doing philanthropy. So think about the importance of patient capital, the importance of not just funding, like the cool, sexy campaigns and projects, but the long term infrastructure support, the ability, you know, for staff to actually be paid dignified wages at these nonprofit institutions or other informal organizing settings. And so, the answers, I think are, rooted in kind of ancient wisdom around the ability of gift economies to really, especially from indigenous wisdom and what we can learn from biomimicry, like redistribution of wealth in ways that take into account kind of the wholeness of the ability to sustain again rather than just like the singular project are really powerful. And there's also a lot of power in things like giving circles, right? The ability to democratize who actually gets to make decisions about who is worthy and deserving of power. And so and definitely highlight the role of giving circles as a way to just get more people involved in the ability to be a part of that capital flow.
Jason Zengerle ’96 I would also, I mean, just for what it's worth, if you are interested in this, Jude O’Reilley in January did a SwatTalk on personal philanthropy, so if you go to the recordings page, it will be there. But he covered some of the same stuff that Jasmine was just talking about, but a little bit, he had some different ideas as well, so that might be worth checking out. This is a question from Becky Voorhees, Voorhes, I'm sorry if I'm pronouncing your name wrong, the class of 93, and she asks, can you talk about the other side of financial activism? So instead of focusing on how good actors can influence and or engage in positive financial behaviors, what about exposing the very nefarious financial behaviors of bad actors, who is working on this and how? And she's thinking specifically of MAGA driven market manipulation with tariffs?
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah. Thanks, Becky. So again I try to stay away from kind of like the good bad binary because I think that many of us are kind of cultured into this financial system right as a norm that is again premised on exploitation. And so one area that I actually think is important for us to drive our attention to are all of the actors who are operating behind the scenes in what's become known as the wealth defense industry. So the wealth defense industry is essentially all of the often very well intentioned, financial advisors and wealth managers and intermediaries and donor advised funds, like all of the infrastructure, that's at the disposal of not only the ultra wealthy, but specifically the ultra wealthy, whose singular job is to protect that wealth. It is to keep it, you know, within the family or within the organization. And something I've seen especially I want to be conscious of naming the role of women who have inherited money or who have earned wages. They're operating within a financial system in which 99% of the advisors and infrastructure around them are run by white men, right. And on its face, not necessarily a harmful or or ill intentioned thing, but what that means is that, I have come across so many women who are interested in doing philanthropy different, interested in investing differently, interested in giving more and they're surrounded by intermediaries who have been taught to protect that wealth. And I think that that also is a conversation we need to be having, like on the progressive side of not just saying, of course, there are so many challenges that we need to reckon with on the right, but I think that also looking to what is the capital that is available to us in progressive movements, and how are we actually continuing to hoard that capital? Because we're not necessarily seeing it as like nefarious. We're seeing it as business as usual. So that's my, not quite answer, but I hope that it gives us something to chew on there.
Jason Zengerle ’96 I mean, one thing you talk about in your book is, the wealth transfer that's going to be happening from the baby boom generation to, you know, I guess Gen Z millennials and the like and the opportunities that presents. Is it going to be the biggest wealth transfer in American history so far?
Jasmin Rashid ’18 It will be.
Jason Zengerle ’96 And even if the stock market continues to go down at this point. What do you see that opening up? What's that going to allow that is not sort of possible right now?
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Totally. So we're the number is 30 trillion, $30 trillion is going to be moved to younger generations by virtue of retirement. And, you know, folks leaving, inheritance. And because of the reality where women live longer, are earning more than they have in previous generations, the majority of wealth holders, for the first time in our history is going to be women, right? So we're actually going and not the distant future are going to be living in a society where women are the primary wealth holders. I think that's a really interesting change. And I was speaking about what I was just talking about, I think that we need to also be curious and cautious of the ways in which, just having more, wealthy women is not necessarily going to solve inequality, right? Like we actually need to rethink our economy so that areas that women may be more pressed to appreciate, for example, the care economy, the, the people who teach our children, the people who care for our elderly and our disabled and our sick, which all of us will be at some point, tend to be women, tend to be women of color, and are often deeply undervalued and often robbed of their wages. And so I think that, this opportunity is one where we need to get really loud about the ways in which it is a great opportunity that can very easily be papered over in this, as a win in of itself, when actually what we need is kind of the deeper rethinking of who gets to be valued in our economy and why.
Jason Zengerle ’96 This is a question from John Postel. Again, I apologize if I'm butchering your last name. Happens to me a lot, so I'm sorry. How would my church be able to get started doing this kind of activism?
Jasmin Rashid ’18 That's a great question. Happy to share some follow up resources that are a little bit more specific to this work, obviously. I got introduced to the kind of legacy of Quaker activism by virtue of going to Swarthmore is not something that I had previously known about. But there's so many different ways to approach, the kind of, again, power of collective investing, the power of collective giving. I don't quite know the kind of scope or scale, but everything from where is your church able to procure supplies, right? Are you able to support local vendors that are actually based in your community rather than kind of the corporate partners? Are you able to, you know, invest in ESG funds rather than kind of on the traditional market? I think that there are so many ways that our religious institutions can be powerhouses of financial activism and change. And happy to share more follow up resources around some ones that are giving me particular inspiration in these moments.
Jason Zengerle ’96 This is a question from Jack Russell Farrell, who asks, to what extent is financial activism or should it be international and global?
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Great question Jack. Yeah. So again, when I say financial activism, I'm talking about the very, very wide menu of all of the different aspects of how money flows through our economy. And we are extremely global, living in an extremely globalized time when, you know, a singular item could have passed through five, six different countries, ten different hands, right? Our lives are deeply globalized and I think that our activism needs to be too. One thing that I really point people to and my training is, in the fundamentals of a just transition, so a just transition is how we move away from the current extractive economy to a regenerative economy. And that needs to take a more, kind of globalized look at cooperation and care that has been developed over decades by primarily climate justice movement activists who come from the global South and from all areas of our world. Who really understand the implications of how the economic desires ignited states affect all those around us. And so, I definitely think that it needs to be international and we can learn so much from our friends and peers living in different areas, for example, not unlike the public banking movement, participatory budgeting is something I talk a lot about in the book. So this is the concept in which municipal governments or local governments of any size will actually portion, either part or all of their budget to be voted on by community members who experience what it is to live in that society. So, for example, it started in Brazil, this idea that when you actually give people the agency to say what their tax dollars should be going towards, they have the solutions, right, because they're living most proximate to the problems. And so they understand, like what are the actual barriers to things like, maternal health and happy to share some follow up links but kind of participatory budgeting has been proven to solve social issues a lot faster when you give people with the most intimate access to the problems, more access to the capital. And, it's something that, again, is quite common in other places around the world, but is a little bit newer in the United States. I will say the participatory budgeting project works across all 50 states and is, kind of tracking campaigns and dollars flowed through participatory budgeting everywhere from high schools to large cities. And that's a place where you can check out if there's any ongoing or existing campaigns in your particular community.
Jason Zengerle ’96 This is a comment rather than a question from Deborah Bond Upson, but she I was actually answering a question that I had about the, North Dakota Public Bank, and she said that the North Dakota Farm labor movement, particularly through the Nonpartisan League, was the driving force behind the creation of the Bank of North Dakota. And, her grandparents were in this movement, and her uncle led investments in education from the bank later. And it was a response to droughts and the need to get financial services to farmers undergoing such challenges. So there you go.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Thank you. Deborah.
Jason Zengerle ’96 That's very helpful. Ruby Gauche asks, since graduating from Swarthmore in 1982, it seemed obvious to me that if a credit union that available, that was an option to choose. However, there is a diversity in credit unions, so please elaborate on options and differences. Can you tell us more about credit unions?
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Sure. So credit unions tend to be identity or affiliation based, right. So they can be a local community, they could be, for example, if you're a teacher, there are specific credit unions for teachers. There actually is a sorority, Alpha Kappa Alpha, that recently launched their own credit unions specifically for their members, which are made up of black women in particular. And so I think finding the credit union that, again, is most relevant to your kind of lived experience is what's most important there.
Jason Zengerle ’96 If there are any gen-xers on this, I think when I was at Swarthmore, the only ATM in Parrish was the Franklin Mint Credit Union. So you basically belonged to the Franklin Mint Credit Union because they didn't have to pay the withdrawal fee when you took money out. This is a question from Saba Thackurdeen, who asks, could you share your experience with some of the groups that are supporting youth and the willingness to reckon with class and wealth, privilege, such as resource generation solidaire and patriotic millionaires? I'm wondering how we can imagine this kind of work is important to a future liberal arts education. I'm also wondering how these shifts in philanthropy change how we might relate to a place like Swarthmore.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah, these are all great groups. Thank you for, for naming them and sharing them. They're also groups that I talk about in the book. I think it's deeply important for people of wealth and who maybe come from legacies of philanthropy to examine the ways in which they can do more in these times, but also doing so amongst their peers and this is where, kind of coming back to the fundamentals of things like money trauma, right. Like as someone who has worked with ultra high net worth families and foundations, money trauma is something that exists even among the ultra wealthy. Because we're talking about something so intimate as questions of how much am I supposed to save for retirement? Or an emergency medical bill, or how much I was supposed to pass down to my children and really, like there is no singular answer. But when you're able to, kind of co-conspire with others, basically these groups, who understand your experience, you understand kind of your intentions and the tensions that you might be holding, I think that there's nothing more powerful.
Jason Zengerle ’96 Arthur Siegel asks, what do you think about reparations for descendants of slavery?
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Excellent question. I actually just got to speak, Harvard Divinity School. My friend there teaches a class on Reparations of Spirituality. And it is really core to kind of the way that I think about financial activism, right? You know, in general, all of this work is trying to remedy past harms and being really explicit about the reality that our financial systems were built on the backs of enslaved people, as well as dispossession of indigenous land here in the United States. And so, I think that reparations are long overdue. I also think that we need to de-radicalize the concepts that reparations are just like white people giving money to black people when in reality, there have been so many cases of reparations throughout history. I actually wrote an article about this, but I'm happy to share a few years back, where it's not a totally, like, uncommon plan, right? It's something that has been paid out for injustices throughout history, but for many reasons, I would say that we are still kind of at the early stages of the conversation. However, there have been some legislative moves to actually build committees to look into what it would take, to have kind of comprehensive reparations plans. But I don't think we need to wait for the government to figure it out. I think that I have seen families who have directly benefited from their descendants being slave holders who have intentionally redistributed their finances, and so happy to also share some resources on those stories, because, again, it's a very personal journey. But I think reparations can happen now rather than being kind of sanctioned by a government that did it in the first place.
Jason Zengerle ’96 What do you think needs to change on, sort of that conversation or in that conversation? Because it does seem like, has it been ten years already? I don't know, whenever Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote that article for The Atlantic, I mean, that seemed to kind of occasion a see change in thinking about reparations. But that was a very, like short moment, a short window, and it seemed possible and then it no longer really seems like, as part of the conversation seems possible anymore. I mean, what do you think could actually have an impact along those lines that could put back into the realm of possibility again, where it doesn't seem to be at the moment.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah. I think that, this again comes back to understanding our particular histories and, and family money stories, right. So in the book, I propose ways for people to think about their money stories not only as their childhood orientation around money and their kind of current and future orientations, but also ancestrally, like, how did these legacies of our current, of what create our current financial system directly impact you? And taking that kind of personal approach to, you know, I know some friends who on an annual basis, they dedicate 5% of their income to black owned organizing, in particular, because they understand that in this particular context of benefiting from white supremacy, that they have reparations to pay. And so, I think that we need kind of a consciousness shift and a culture shift around this being something that is more normalized again, rather than something that needs to be kind of a singular overhaul that I have little faith in, in this moment in particular.
Jason Zengerle ’96 Yeah, that makes sense. This is a question from Bruce Rockwood. He asked, can you comment on the risks to nonprofits and college endowments, among others? Threats by the current administration? We make small contributions to many nonprofits that are at risk if whether or not tax exemption is denied in this way, Bruce's class of 68.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Got it. Thanks, Bruce. Can you comment on the rest of nonprofits? Yeah. Huge risk. Huge risk. In these moments and, you know, college endowments too. I think that college endowments are often invisibilized, as kind of major assets of power, right? We see the, the public campaigns, whether it's fossil fuels or divestment from Israel, that are bringing more attention to the power of these institutions. I think that this is going to be a conversation we're having beyond just this administration, right. And to the fundamentals of what is a college or an endowment supposed to perpetuate? But yeah, I think, sorry maybe the question is a little bit broad, but I think that we are living in very dangerous times and this is now the time to be more explicit around how we support this infrastructure. And it's something that I see, actually, I think, I'll shout out just one foundation, the Margaret Casey Foundation today, I think, announced that they're actually moving their largest investments, I'm forgetting the exact number. But specifically, in these times, rather than cutting back on their funding to nonprofits, they're kind of doubling down and I think that that's, lead that many of us can follow.
Jason Zengerle ’96 Jody Williams asks a question that I know you wrote about in your book. Any thoughts on guaranteed personal income? Give your thoughts on this.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah, my thoughts are I love guaranteed income. As well as the concepts of universal basic income. My colleague Aisha Nyandoro runs the Magnolia mothers trusts, in Jackson, Mississippi and she has proven out that when you give, black moms who are low income, just a little bit extra cash, the effects on the well-being of not only their immediate children, but their entire communities are massive, like, cannot be understated the ways in which when you give people more money, employment goes up, right? Because they now have the ability to actually, you know, navigate and pay their bills and do job interviews. And stability goes up, the ability for people to participate politically, right. Like we're seeing moms who have gone through this pilot program now, actually, you know, showing up and, and leading efforts in local council meetings. And we're also just seeing the effects it has on their children in terms of like, hey, like my family is less stressed, like my mom is more fun to be around, right. And the ways that that is breaking cycles of generational trauma, I think is profound. And it is a deeply underinvested strategy that could pretty quickly change a lot of lives and change communities and the fabric as a whole. But to your point, we need to, I think, and this is where the value of culture change comes in, we need to reckon with the ability that people, even the phrase like cost of living is a little dehumanizing, right? Like, we are on this Earth for a limited period of time and I think that to have to prove that we are worthy of it, is a disgrace for all of us and all of our humanity and so, I think it's time to decouple the notion that we need to earn our ability to have basic needs. But maybe I'm a radical.
Jason Zengerle ’96 So we have, like, a minute left and I thought I'd just sort of close with my own question. I mean, you seem, like, optimistic, and I guess that seems like a precious resource these days and especially in this area. And I was just wondering if you could, just explain a little bit about why you're optimistic at this particular moment? And what is it that sort of giving you hope about things? Because I think there's probably that's probably in short supply for a lot of folks.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Yeah. I think hope is a radical act. It's something that I was thoroughly trained in, in my Peace and Conflict studies training, but also in the ways I've seen, my communities and others serve not only to survive, but thrive against the odds. And I think that when we remind ourselves that even the myths like all of the barriers, our ancestors have found ways to survive, I, through this book project, got to interview countless financial activists who may not even consider themselves like, particularly prolific or radical, but again, have found ways to reclaim wealth that has been stolen, have found ways to provide and and thrive without kind of, anyone's permission. And I think that it would be a disservice for me to not be hopeful when I have been able to witness their story so intimately. And, I think that hope is the only, like, true renewable resource we have. Like, without hope, we have actually very little fuel but keep going in these moment. So I encourage you all and I hope that the book is a source of hope that kind of keeps on giving. And I am committed to being pragmatic and optimistic when it comes to the survival of my communities.
Jason Zengerle ’96 Jasmine, thank you so much for taking the time to do this tonight. It was a really great conversation. And, I really appreciate you doing it. Thank you.
Jasmin Rashid ’18 Thanks so much.
Jason Zengerle ’96 All right. Good night. Everybody.
