Speaker 1:	Well hello and welcome to everybody and thank you so much for having me. This is the first time I've ever done a careers services talk and I was thinking about what I was going talk to you guys about. The most important thing for me about this talk is, hey welcome, is you guys. I really want this to be about you all and questions that you have and everything. 
	So what I'm going to do is talk a little bit about my career. Talk a little bit about the entertainment industry right now, which is kind of a challenging topic and you'll learn why in a second because it's really evolving and changing as we speak. But I really want to have a good 30 minutes for you all to be asking questions, maybe more you know type of thing. I really want this to be formed around you. Anything I can provide in terms of insight or answers or what have you. 
	So as Christy said, pretty much right when I graduated from Swarthmore in '87, I went out to L.A. I'm from here. I'm from the area so that was a big change. But I went out specifically to get into the entertainment industry. For about a minute there was a chance I could have gotten a job in New York at DDB Needam in advertising and that would have changed my life for sure. But I think it was all, I think for me, I was interested in telling stories and what went on in entertainment the summer before my senior year when I went out to Los Angeles to work that summer. I just had some extra money and had a connection out there and went out and basically temped and got a feel for the city and everything. At that point I thought, wow this is a pretty cool place. I also like the city a lot too. I'm from Marion and I grew up on the Maine line so the weather and all that was really helpful. This has been quite something the last two days. I thought you guys got rid of cold weather here. 
	So I started in the industry, in the entertainment industry like most people used to typically do. I mean they still do it but some of this is going to be a little bit dated and challenging but I started in the mail room. I went with my brand new shiny Swarthmore degree and became a messenger. A great way though. I'll tell you something, I learned some lessons as a messenger that have stuck with me to this day. So what I would do, I worked for a production company that made films. It was a company called King's Road Entertainment and they made films such as the Big Easy and Slapshot and All of Me and at that time they were making things like Jackknife. I think they made the Big Easy around that time too. 
	So, my job was to basically take scripts and deliver them all around the Los Angeles area. It was great because it helped me get to know LA and helped me get to know the typography but I remember I used to go on studio lots and everything and I would just go and I would deliver my package like a good person and come back and everything. I remember one of the guys that was in the mail room said to me, he's like have you ever been to a sound stage? Do you know what a sound stage is? It's like that big cavernous thing where they shoot things. And I said no. The door says very clearly, absolutely positively no admittance whatsoever. He looked at me and he's like so, when the light turns yellow, do you stop? I was like no. He's like, okay. 
	So, I got up my courage and went onto a lot and opened up that big imposing door and sure enough, I didn't disappear. I didn't get thrown in jail or whatever. That was a really great lesson for me in terms of not just the entertainment industry but in terms of life actually, which was the idea that sometimes when a door says absolutely positively no admittance whatsoever, that's actually the door I should be going through. 
	So anyway, I was a messenger and then I became an assistant to the head of the producer, the head of the company and I really learned the film industry at his side. One of the things I learned about the entertainment industry is that really there is and it's still true today, there are really two sides to it. There is people, most of the entertainment industry is a lot of people who take the core kind of things that are created by a very few people and they sell them and they distribute them. I sort of looked at it and said well okay, if I'm going to be an executive in the entertainment industry, what's the difference between doing that and frankly being in the shoe business? The answer is there isn't a whole lot.
	So I thought why did I come out here? Well I came out here really to create things. I came out here to really create something and at the time the closest thing for me was writing, screen writing. I guess not surprising coming from Swarthmore. So I took a job in, at the time there was an executive search from a recruiting firm, which was helping out the company I was at and they had an entertainment division and I thought well maybe I'll go and work with them. I can still stay in the business but I can have time to write on site because working for a producer takes up all your time. There is literally no time to do anything. 
	So I went and did that and pretty much my career has followed that path the whole time. I've either spent time doing entertainment recruiting or doing consulting in terms of recruiting or I've spent time honing my craft and I spent a long time writing a lot of scripts. I wrote a lot of television and then I wrote a lot of film stuff but it really wasn't and I tried to combine the two by working in programming at a cable network and found out that it really wasn't combining the two. You're really just an executive like I had really thought I had always suspected you know it would be. 
	It wasn't until 2004, about eight years ago, I directed a short film for the, there is a directing competition on HBO called Project Greenlight that was created by Matt Damon and Ben Affleck and I directed a short and that went a couple of rounds but more importantly it was this huge eye opening experience for me because I thought, you know, that really felt right. I never thought of myself as a director. I always thought, okay I studied writing and I wrote, and wrote and I'm banging my head against the wall and it's really hard to kind of hone your craft. But when I directed, that really spoke to all of the skills that I like which is I really like working with people. I really like getting a lot of people around a project and kind of listening to what the piece is really about and really serving that, serving the heart of that piece. 
	Then I thought back and I thought you know, I have made other things before. I remember making a video for my grandparents for their 50th wedding anniversary and that went well so it was just one of those things that I stumbled on it and it was really clear that okay, this was it for me. Pretty much ever since anytime that I've kind of focused on directing versus, I still get sucked into writing and that's really important, things have just gone well. I ended up directing a documentary about the Iroquois, the Iroquois Confederacy and the sport of lacrosse. T
	he Iroquois created the sport of lacrosse. They play it ceremonially. The Iroquois are six nations in upstate New York and Canada. The sport that you see today is the long stick lacrosse they created and they play it ceremonially as part of their religion but they also play it competitively and they also travel on their own passports, which most people don't know. Every four years they play in the World Lacrosse Championships as a sovereign nation. It's them and 23 other teams and they are the fourth best team in the world. They are drawing upon this type of player pool so I thought, this was in 2005 that I stumbled across it because I played lacrosse here. Lacrosse was one of my first movie ideas and I was doing research to revise that script and I came across this, I met with them in upstate New York and I learned all this and I thought, somebody should be documenting them in the world games. 
	So I did that. I made a proposal and they accepted it and I made a film called Iroquois Rise about them in the 2006 World Championships. So from there, I got involved in television and I spent time, based on kind of experience there in that piece, I actually met somebody I think though a Swarthmore gathering in LA who was executive producing a show called The Unit on CBS and I went there and spent time really as a director observer. That was really transformative for me in terms of this because for a director, if you're just interested in directing, television is phenomenal. That's where all the money is being spent, is in TV, making TV programs. Things are changing now with the web and online stuff but I spent time really as an observer and meeting and learning from the best directors in television. I was able to do that for a couple of seasons on The Unit, a little bit on a show called Lie to Me on Fox, and even Good Luck Charlie in their second season. They are now on their fourth season, that's half hour. I was able to spend some time there.
	Last year, I ended up going to a conference in Africa of a worldwide gathering of Quakers that was a once in a generation gathering of all these different Quakers from around the world. For those of you who don't know, Quakers are members of The Religious Society of Friends, come in all shapes and sizes. The folks that founded this place were liberal unprogrammed friends and this accounts for this section of the Quaker spectrum. It goes from there all the way to Evangelical friends. The majority of Quakers are in Africa, actually in Kenya.
	It was the first time that all of them had gotten together since 1967 in Kenya and me and my wife and a couple of other people were selected, I'm a Quaker, were selected to represent a specific yearly meeting, which is one of their many yearly meetings that were going. So naturally one of the ways I was thinking of bringing the experience back to the folks who funded us was to make a film about it and so I talked to the other four folks who were going. They were really into it as well. It turns out one of the other people that the PYM selected was also an artist and a documentary. So secret in what they wanted us to do. They had a deeper wisdom there in selecting us. I think we'll select two filmmakers, a formal journalist, and somebody into music. Hmmm. But they never said anything to us just we're selecting you guys. 
	So we decided we were going to make a film about it and we decided to do it as a professional project. Developing a proposal and everything. So when we started talking to people about the fact that we were doing it, we learned there was a lot of people who were really interested in seeing it because a lot of people who couldn't go to this thing. 
	We reached out to the organization doing the conference because we wanted to coordinate with them, we were going to be shooting this. They said well you know this is a great idea. No we're not doing anything and we're delighted you're doing this. So we ended up doing it for everyone. We ended up raising money for it separately and you can see it, by the way, if you're interested in this sort of thing. It's up online. It's called Salt and Light.
	Then I have a TV project in which I reached out to the author of a book called No One Calls the Bride that I developed and we're out there. It's received from interest. We're talking to networks about it and that type of thing. So anyways, it's just a long way of saying that and all along I've sort of kept the recruiting, consulting going because these days, even for the professionals in the industry, it's hard to make a living. The professionals, if you're on the creative side. If you're on the business side, that's different. But if you're on the creative side, it's project by project oriented. 
	Even though you might not think of yourself that way, you're running a business. You're running the business of you as a writer, as a director, as a producer, whatever the case may be. So, that brings me to here. The reason that I'm here actually is talking to Swarthmore about doing a documentary in honor of the sesquicentennial celebration next year. So one of the things we're doing is we're looking to involve students in it either on the film making side or on the music side actually. So that kind of brings us up to date in terms of me and my career. 
	Then I guess I wanted to talk a little bit, is that confusing? Does that make sense to folks generally? The other thing I wanted to talk about was the entertainment industry then I'll promise I'll stop talking. I feel like I've just been talking way too much.
	The entertainment industry is in a really weird state right now. When I graduated back in the late 80s, things still worked pretty traditionally the way that it did, which was, and if you're from the entertainment industry in Hollywood or LA you'll know all this but you go out there. You get a job as an assistant. You learn the business. If you want to write, direct, or tell stories, you can go to film school, which is fine. The barriers to making things are quite high and you're able to do it but you kind of patch things together.
	These days it's just a lot more amorphous and up there. I just came, actually, the first three days of this week I was down in Miami at the television conference for the television broadcast networks and distributors called NATPEG, the National Association of Television Programming Executives Gathering. The broadcast television networks, NBC, CBS, Fox, and the theaters, the film companies are in a really weird state right now because with technology and with everybody watching everything on all kinds of different devices and everything, they used to be able to count on people going, the broadcast people would count on people going and sitting in front of their TV at a certain time to watch something. The film people would count on people to be able to go to the theaters and sit in there and watch something. The audiences left and it's left them behind. What their typical ways of setting up their business are, it's not that they are not working but they are just seeing it go down. 
	Meanwhile, there is tons of opportunity on the digital side. There is a ton of opportunity. At this television conference, probably the biggest presenter there was YouTube. YouTube has just created this wonderful forum for folks to create their own content and to create their own networks and channels. This really is the future. 
	So whereas typically some things from the past still hold. I mean you can still go out to Los Angeles and get a job at the mail room of one of the talent agencies if you want to be an executive or you can go out and get a job, I do recommend going out and getting a job as an assistant or you can go to film school and what have you. But it really requires creativity in terms of your career. It really requires adaptability. You've got all things going. You've got the opportunities out there and you've got how do you translate what you want to do into actual work. That by the way is the biggest challenge if you're on the creative side.
	But the other part is what works for you? You know what I mean? It took me a long time, it took me 20 years to figure out that I wanted to direct. By the way, this isn't unique for Swarthmore graduates. I find that a lot of graduates are always reinventing themselves or whatever. It's a constant seeking process. But the question is, what is that kind of whisper behind you. Isn't the thing that's in front of you, that you think yeah I want to be a writer but really the thing that is behind you saying what is it that's right for you? And then how does that connect up with the opportunities out there and what's you there? 
	I'm just going to stop talking right now and I really want to turn it over to you guys and spend as much or all of the rest of the time we have with questions. Now is the time to leave no stone unturned. I'll do everything I can. Is that helpful by the way? I'm going to sit yes. 
Speaker 2:	How does a writer get the work out, his or her work? 
Speaker 1:	What kind of a writer? 
Speaker 2:	Let's say film. Let's say it's a script for an hour and a half movie. 
Speaker 1:	Well there's so many ways. Right now there are more film festivals than I could even imagine out there. A lot of which take screenplay submissions. So there is a lot of contests out there. But really the top screen writers of today are the ones saying you know, this was the challenging thing for me giving this talk because things are moving. But basically the message that everyone is saying is you can't think of yourself as just a writer. You have to think of yourself as somebody who, okay maybe that's what you like to do but you've got to get it made. You can make it now. Even in the most rudimentary fashion, I don't care what script you have. You could go shoot it on a stage you know? 
	So one of the suggestions these days, and I'm talking about from the top writers on down, is just make your movie. Even if it's the bad version of your movie, you can tell if the story works. I mean in the end, there is one myth that kind of goes around that there are a lot of undiscovered talent in Hollywood, you know? There are a lot of great scripts that just aren't getting made. It's not true. It's not true. If it's a great script, people will, they will put their neck on the line for it. I'm not sure if you're here for the business side or the creative side. I'm really interested to know what it is and maybe we can ask that soon but if you're here on the creative side, the thing I would tell you that's the hardest thing isn't connections. It's learning how to tell great stories. And it's learning the craft of telling stories. 
	The most incredible experience I had was when I went into the writer's room of The Unit and I did go and I was able to sit in the writer's room of the Unit. If you're a writer and you want to be a professional writer, that's what I would say do right out of school. Go be an assistant to other writers. It's the best thing you can do because that was it. Like the whole mission. Here I am trying to reinvent the wheel and I've got my Swarthmore degree and I'm like I want to change the world and create stuff. You sit in the writer's room and you see how they do it. You see how they do it. They are just basically going, they are thinking about movies. So the best thing you can do as a writer is watch as many movies as possible. You know what I mean? Because all they are doing is taking a movie and they are going, well maybe we can take that structure and apply it to this show. Maybe we can create a story based on that structure. 
	Until you see pros doing that and how they do that, you're kind of operating in a vacuum. But the answer to your question is write a script, get it out there anyway you can. If it's great, people will put their neck on the line. They will pass it up the chain. These days access isn't an issue. 
Speaker 3:	So on the business side, do you find ...
Speaker 1:	I want to ask people to introduce themselves. Sorry, just your name. 
Jake:	I'm Jake. 
Speaker 1:	Hi Jake. How are ya? 
Jake:	Good. So I'm curious, on the business side, do you find there is any overlap in filming television these days because I've heard that you have to pick a track and stick with it? But with all the convergence that you're talking about, can you kind of shift your career between film and television or do you kind of have to stick with one? 
Speaker 1:	It's a good question. These days things are getting blurrier because as I'm sure you know, there are a lot of film people making TV. The film business, I have a very successful film producer who is a producer on this TV show that I've got, right? We are out there pitching it to the networks and he's really excited because he's this independent producer who has been making films forever with credit cards essentially. He's looking at me and he's like you know this is a real business. You go in. They make it. It happens. The film business, not a real business because you develop something for 10 years and then maybe it gets made. That's what happening now. There is no work in the film business for a lot of people. So they are going into TV or now on digital, online. Whether it's alloy digital or midamchannel or Smosh or all the stuff like that. 
	So to answer your question, right now there is still a Chinese wall between the two. You know? But I think that's going to come down personally because before if you're in the film business there was a snobbery to being in TV. If you were in TV, you always wanted to be in film. That type of thing. There are different relationships. The reason that they would have you pick different tracks is that there are different relationships. There are different people. So there are different people that are developing films and they have different priorities versus people developing TV and they have different cycles and that type of thing. 
	So it's hard to have relationships with everyone but it's not impossible. I think as it goes forward, it's probably going to come down. There is still a little bit of that leftover. Does that answer your question? 
Sophia:	Hi, another question. I'm Joshua by the way. 
Speaker 1:	Oh hey.
Sophia:	I have a question about the overlap between creative and business. Like if someone is a creative person, are they on the business side as well? Do they have to be? Or are they just creative and you find people to do the business for them? How much does it need to overlap? 
Speaker 1:	Well again, my previous perceptions of this are all getting trashed as I kind of precede in life. It doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. If you have a great project, here's an example to answer your question. I don't know if this is helpful. So, I've been going to these TV conferences for awhile now. I haven't gone to this one in a while but I've gone previously. Anyway, I go there and I'm talking to about two different things. I have this show and I'm also talking about doing recruiting right. So I might start the conversation talking about recruiting and people are like well okay, that's interesting. Then I mention that I'm actually a director and I'm making project and I have this show. They are like really?? They really want to talk to me. I thought there would be some discrimination like people are like wait a minute? He's a ... but no there isn't. If you got something good, that's all that matters. 
	Sometimes what people do is if they work in a business and they are worried that they might jeopardize their job or something, they might go out with the script with a pending. But again, that just goes to show you how it doesn't matter because if it sells, then people always find out. Oh yeah, this was the VP of Marketing over at Fox and that type of thing. 
	Yes? 
Sophia:	I'm Sophia. I was wondering if any of that crossed over into the theater world as well? And going back and forth between that. 
Speaker 1:	Yeah, I think so. I believe personally, again, it's different relationships. There are different people in charge. There are different dynamics that are a part of it. I know nothing about the theater world by the way. But my sense of it is that if you have a piece of material and you create something that's better than a play or a musical than it is as anything else. That will get attention. You'll be able to go and do that. I know that actors do it all the time, as they go from one to the other to the other. I don't see why you can't. It just ends up being a lot. The challenge here, as you've probably figured out if that if you've got a piece of material and you've got a project you want to make, the challenge here is just so much of the work is getting it out there. So much of the work is just doing the legwork to actually get it to all the festivals and all the possible producers in TV and all the producers in theater or whatever they need to be. 
Sophia:	Do you think as a single writer you could tackle all the different mediums? 
Speaker 1:	Sure why not? Good storytelling, somebody like David Mamet does that and other too. Matt and Trey. Matt Parker and Trey Stone are gods. They are gods man. They are just doing incredibly well. I know that on the creative side they are really well respected. On the business side, all the people on the business side can think of is just look at them and go, they are getting like $5 million a week for The Book of Mormon. Why didn't I jump on that bandwagon?  
Sophia:	I guess not the actual mediums but I guess maybe the network and around. Are they connections aren't, say, not as difficult? 
Speaker 1:	Say that again.
Sophia:	Not the actual medium of writing it but I guess like the crossover of people. 
Speaker 1:	It's just more work for you. 
Lisa:	Hi, I'm Lisa. You mentioned that you went to LA instead of going to New York. Do you think there are opportunities in New York or do you think you want to get into TV or film, you really should go to LA? 
Speaker 1:	I can't speak to New York. I don't know New York well but I do know the opportunities are definitely there. It's interesting. I would love to hear somebody that has a similar experience and have them here to talk about New York and what they did in New York because I don't quite know the dynamics especially starting out. In LA, I know that the name of the game in the beginning is to try to be an assistant or try to work in that area you want to work in. But I just don't know how it works in New York. I think it's smaller. I mean film and TV, my sense of it, because I've spent a little bit of time on this. There's a company out in Brooklyn College, they are creating a new film school by the way, a new public film school in Brooklyn College, the first public graduate film school in New York. But my sense of it is just that the community is smaller. People know each other a little bit more than LA. LA is a little big more spread out. 
Speaker 7:	So in regards to honing your craft, would you recommend going to school because you mentioned going to film school and would you recommend the same thing for those who are writers and actors as well before really getting into the business? 
Speaker 1:	Yeah, I knew this question was going to come up and it's a really, really good question one I wish I had a really clear answer for you. I really can't say either. I think there are advantages to both. I think that these days one of the things that is happening right now is that there is a proliferation of film schools. This is connected to what I said earlier, if you notice the reason for that is that because remember I said you can't really make a living in the film business these days unless you're Jerry Bruckheimer and all those independent producers. There are no deals. So what do they do? They teach you. So there is a big migration now from the industry to teaching. 
	And I was dissuaded from film school by Spike Lee because I read ... I was. He doesn't know it. But I read the journal when he was making She's Got To Have It, you know? All it kept saying and by the way, Spike Lee is now an artist in residence at NYU but all he kept saying in that journal was I only went to film school for the equipment. It taught me nothing. So I thought well rather than spend all that money to go to film school, why don't I focus that money on making a film but here is the advantages I think of going to film school. I think that if you go to film school, first of all, you get your advanced degree and when you have an MFA, when you're making projects like I am and you're out there presenting yourself as a director or writer or what have you, it's part of your professional credentials. People don't talk about this much but you need to think in terms of if I'm going to make stuff, how am I going to fund it? That's a whole proposal process and I'm even talking to Swarthmore about this now, about this little documentary we're thinking about the college. 
	So I think that's helpful. I also think that the relationships that you make in film school are really great because you're making relationships in film school and then everybody else is going out into the industry and then you kind of have that as a touchstone when you're out there. People can help other people and people will succeed and then they might be able to help you. The downside of it, there are a couple downsides. One is, is that unless you're somebody who comes from a wealthy family, you're either somebody can take on about $200,000 worth of debt or your family can afford $200,000 but think of it. In an industry where the employment is hard and it takes time, the worst thing you want to do is go out there with $200,000 in debt. Then you're almost ensuring yourself to not get a gig or that you have to take something that you don't want. 
	So that is a really hard dilemma I think. If you're a doctor and you go into $200,000 worth of debt, you pretty much know you're going to get a job. But if you're in this industry, it's kind of the reverse dynamic I think. So that's the advantages of going to film school and I guess the disadvantages of going to film school. I ended up getting my film school out in the world and doing my thing but I always think about how would it have been if I had went. Should I have gone? That type of thing. I don't know. 
Speaker 8:	As a composer, how is ...
Speaker 1:	Your name is? 
Speaker 8:	My name is Alejandro. As a composer, how does one get his big break other than by going to music film school like if one is interested in writing music for TV or film or computer media? 
Speaker 1:	Sure. Kind of the same answer sort of applies. I think there could be real advantages of going to film school and making those connections and relationships. I also think that you could also spend that time as well creating music for other film makers while you are out there in the world. The key is just continuing to make things and continuing to score films and compose films, all kinds. Documentary shorts, webisodes, everything. 
	I would argue that you know you're in the right function in the industry if the industry is your thing, if you'll basically, you don't really care what you do, you just want to do it. I'll direct anything. I'm at a point where if somebody says, I mean I'm not so busy that I can't take on more. If somebody wants to fund a web series I'm happy to direct it. I'm happy to direct it. Tony Scott, you know one of the most successful directors in the industry, he would make films and in between he would just make commercials. If it's something you want to do and love to do, just make it. Keep making it. 
	The big break, that's another myth, the big break. Thank you for mentioning that. I really appreciate that because and I'm getting a lot of this by the way from Terry Rossio and if you don't know who Terry Rossio is, he's a very successful screenwriter and I would argue one of the top two or three in the industry. He has this really great perspective on the big break and basically he says everybody thinks that once you do something, everything is a lot easier. He's like it's actually not true. At the end, you just have to keep creating and in the end, you'll just be evaluated on the quality of your work. Yes, people will read Terry Rossio's stuff maybe quicker than they might read my stuff but they aren't going to pay him for it if it isn't great. They are not going to get into business with him just to be in business with him.
	On the creative side I really think that's true. On the TV side, sometimes they take risks with people who they just want to be in business with and TV is very much of an execution medium on the writer producer side but generally speaking. Unfortunately I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the work never stops and just keeps getting harder as you go. 
Evelyn:	Hi, I'm Evelyn. So I guess I have a couple of questions. One is about kind of the writer director relationship and if you think that, do people end up directing their own writing? Do you have to have a relationship with the writer, like you mentioned, well I guess the questions are kind of intertwined. Like, as a director, do you have writers work who you prefer to direct or writers you end up working with a lot and do you think that's necessary in order to get work directing? I'm not sure why that's in my head but it kind of is. Then secondly, you mentioned that you'll direct anything, which is awesome but do you ever have to sacrifice creative control in order to work and is that upsetting? I guess obviously, quite possibility but how do you [inaudible 00:41:55]?
Speaker 1:	Yeah, let me answer the second one first then I'll go back to the first. On the directing side, one of the reasons I like to direct and I like to work with people. On the TV side, the TV directors don't have any power, I mean they have some power. They really don't have much power. They are there to service the writers, producers, you know. I love that. I'm happy to do that. There are some shows that I might have a problem supporting if I really feel like they are mean spirited you know at the end of the day or if they are treating somebody in a way that they are not comfortable with. I don't have that problem, haven't had that problem yet. 
	But generally speaking, that's what you're doing. You're like somebody who has these talents to be able to work with actors. See I love working with actors. I love that creative process. I love the process of shooting and I love the process of editing and putting it all together you know. In the TV world, you're at the service of the writer, producers. I don't have any problems with that personally. You have some protections. The DGA, you're able, basically you have the time to be able to do your cut and then you give your cut over and they do with it what they want. But I think it's a great opportunity because you can direct constantly. You can go from one episode to another. You're just constantly on set making things and you're making things in the world. 
	So I don't get all caught up about that. If it's something that I've developed or I've created, you know what I'm saying, that's when those issues of protection kind of come in and then I think I'm going to segue to your second question, which is for instance I have this project I mentioned. There is this TV show called No One Tells The Bride and basically it's a show about, it's based on a book, and it's a show about the first year of marriage and how this strong, liberal woman ended up kind of going out and experiment because she thought she could go nowhere with a conservative naval officer and they fell in love and ended up getting married. 
	So of course the first thing she does when they get married, he's a macho guy, she tries to change him. Of course that doesn't work. Then she has to decide, do I stay in this or do I leave and she ends up swallowing, gulp, and deciding to embrace him for what he is and then he does change because she doesn't try to change him right? 
	So I developed this. I reached out to the writer of this book, Marge Stark. I thought the writing in this book was really wonderful. I thought it was a book really about how to live life. It's just very deep wisdom about being thrown into a situation and they don't really give you any rules. You hear about happily ever after but you never really hear about marriage. What's that about right? 
	So we created that together so now I feel very, so first of all she's a great writer. I love working with people who I, I think a great writer is probably somebody who is really good at accessing character and really good at accessing heart and she's really good at that. I know story and structure and I can edit it so it's wonderful to be able to have that relationship because A, I like working with people and B, I think she's really talented. I am very protective about that material. When we're going out there and talking to and pitching it to people and what have you, people might come up with ideas and what have you and I'm like okay, that's helpful if it makes it better but because I created that with her, yeah I will be very protective about that because I'm protecting something that we created. 
	I don't know if that answers your question but I do like working with talented people and generally as a director, I would prefer to work with the most talented people in every category and just leave the basic directing things to me, great. 
Evelyn:	My secondary question is, do you think that if you want to be in the role that you're talking about of sort of a primary creator of coming up with something new to be made rather than being brought into a project because I know there's a lot with TV shows. The head writer stays the same each week, the creator of the show is the same at the end of the credits each week, but there is a different director for Mad Men every week. So if you want to be having a project that you make yourself, do you think you need to be a writer as well? 
Speaker 1:	Yes. Well actually I'll caveat that. Typically, yes but Cheers for instance, Cheers was created by Glen Charles and Les Charles who were writers on Taxi and The Mary Tyler Moore Show or whatever but also James Burroughs who is a director. So the three of them got together and created Cheers and that was a unique experience. But the crafts are different. Writing is a different craft than directing. I don't mean to say, it's just easy to go from one to the other because it's really not. They are totally different skills. I feel like I'm a much more natural director than I am a writer. As a writer, I am just battling all my worst instincts and all my demons. That whole thing. I think maybe that's the answer to your question, that they are different crafts and it's really important to recognize that they are different crafts. 
Speaker 10:	Hi, I'm [inaudible 00:48:23]. Earlier you were talking about learning the writing process from the pros who really how to do it. Where would you suggest specifically to go to get that kind of experience? 
Speaker 1:	I didn't hear you because he was walking out the door. What do I suggest ...
Speaker 10:	Specifically to go to get that kind of experience. 
Speaker 1:	Of learning ....
Speaker 10:	Like how to story tell. 
Speaker 1:	Like on the web? 
Speaker 10:	Like businesses or somewhere where they base those people like we're in college just graduating and we want to learn. 
Speaker 1:	And storytelling in what medium? Like film? TV? Or writing novels or just plays or just in general? 
Speaker 10:	Probably film and TV.
Speaker 1:	So first of all I think, it's amazing. There is so much available on the web right now. I mean just as a starting point in terms of story telling. Stuff that was never really available before. In the past, they used to have these screen writing books and they weren't written by writers. They were written by writers who didn't succeed as writers who found a way to write a book that was compelling. Now you have really great writers who are telling you how you can do it. I do want to direct you to the Terry Rossio's, all of his columns, he has a website called wordplayer.com. The heart of that is the columns and the columns just go through all these things that talk about storytelling and John August has also a great website. He's a very successful screenwriter that talks about it. There is stuff on YouTube, etc. 
	But, that's all fine and dandy in theory but what I'm hearing you say is maybe that learning how to do it, to actually work? So in addition to all that I'm telling you, the other thing I would say, is become an assistant to a writer. Like a working writer. It could be a film writer who has a development deal. It could be a TV writer. It could be any of those things. There are two types of assistants by the way. There is a writer assistant that's in the room, taking down notes and then there is the assistant to the writer that hasn't proved themselves. So writer's assistant is actually someone who the writer's have looked at their scripts and said okay there is potential here and we want to bring this person along. The assistant might be some hybrid of that where maybe they've looked at their scripts. They are not as strong but they like them, they feel like they could do administrative stuff too but either way, it's all helpful and valuable. 
	Probably my biggest barrier to overcome in my career was I was an assistant to a producer first versus a writer because I didn't really know what I wanted but really if I had to do it over again, one of the things I would do is after being an assistant to a producer, I'd try to go and get a job as an assistant to a writer or a director, to really learn it. 
	So does that make sense? Does that answer your question? If I'm not answering your questions, really feel free to keep pressing me. It's totally cool. We'll get to the answer somehow. 
Juanita:	I'm Juanita and well because you were just saying you were an assistant to a producer and I've had this conversation with so many before. What does a producer do? 
Speaker 1:	That's awesome. Have you ever seen Wag the Dog? The movie Wag the Dog? Dustin Hoffman's character in Wag that Dog. He's like we're cooking. This is producing. Nobody knows what producers do. Basically producers make things happen. Producers really, fundamentally at the end of the day are, there are a few producers who may have a creative skill or two. I don't mean that derogatorily. There are a few producers who might be pretty good at helping the story or whatever but typically they're not. Typically, producers not matter how they dressed or how they come in, producers might as well be wearing a suit because they are just business guys or women or whoever who are really good at making phone calls and doing everything it takes to try to birth a project. 
	The amazing producers really are amazing. I mean I came across this guy, Todd Harris, who reminds me of the producers of all. He made this movie recently called Crooked Arrows, which you may have heard of or seen or whatever but I connected with him on the front end of that process because I had made my documentary Iroquois Rising. I saw what he did to make this thing come, he made it completely independently, outside the system. The PDF that he had created, all the sponsors that he got attached to this thing who weren't giving any money. They were just lending their, he just piled so many things into this project whether it was connections with all the lacrosse organizations around the world. It was a movie about Native American lacrosse. 
	All these lacrosse organizations around the world and Reebok was there and just you've got a director attached. You have all these things together. Even then, it wasn't going to happen until one person stepped up and wrote a check. So it took them an extra year longer than he thought. But he willed that into existence. A producer is somebody who has got all the great business skills you ever thought were business skills, negotiator, making calls. But they are super entrepreneurial and they are not afraid to do that all because they just want to get this movie or TV show made. Does that make sense? 
Sola:	I'm Sola. I was wondering what it's like to be an art director in film or TV and also if you recommend working as an assistant also for someone who wants to become an art director? 
Speaker 1:	Yeah, all the crafts is part of it all, are really great and they are really necessary. An art director, for those of you who might not know, art director is set design essentially. It's helping to design what the room might look like that the scene is taking place in or it's helping to design, it basically sets. Essentially both sets indoor and outdoors and that type of thing. I'm sorry what was your question about it? 
Sola:	What it's like to be.
Speaker 1:	Well all these jobs that are in production, it's all very similar. You're spending a lot of time on set. The hours are very, very long. It's not an eight hour day. It's usually eight to 10, it could be 12, could be 14 type of thing although you are part of a union so ... when you're on a show whether that's a TV show or a movie or whatever, you're doing well. Typically, you're making a good living if you're part of the union or what have you. You're always trying to find work. If you're not on a show like NCIS that's been on for 10 years, which is great if you can get it. A great saying in Hollywood. It's good work if you can get it. It's great work if you can get it but that's the real thing. And I do recommend being an assistant because each of those crafts, my sense of it is, once you start working, that everybody makes relationships, and that's your network for when you're trying to go from project to project. But it's a hard lifestyle in a sense that when you're working you just don't have the finite hours that folks have at "normal" jobs have. I don't know how that affects family life and all of that. 
Sola:	I'm also wondering about narration. So what's your process for having a narrator in your documentaries and things like that? 
Speaker 1:	The process for having ... say it again. The process for? 
Sola:	Getting a narrator I suppose. Like for instance, for this [inaudible 00:58:25], do you think students could be involved in at Swarthmore? Like could we narrate? 
Speaker 1:	Maybe. Sure. It comes down to the quality level and what you're going for and how it reflects the story and everything but it's like casting. It's very much similar to casting. So you're looking at your piece and you're figuring out how does this fit into the piece. 
Speaker 13:	When you're just starting out and you're not going to do the whole Hollywood thing especially if you, if you're not stable in one place in that way or in one circle, one industry, how do you recommend balancing making a living with making collaborative work with other people? 
Speaker 1:	Can you just say your question one more time because I heard a couple of different things in that question.
Speaker 13:	Basically my question is how do you make work with other people? Say, okay you have an idea or whatever, a script, you have people. Maybe you don't have money but you have people who are interested in making something with you, whatever. So how do you balance that with making a living, making enough to get by? How much is enough to get by? Are you basically saying, the bare minimum if I can make this much, I can eat soup and that's fine. I love Campbell's. Or is it kind of like I am going to try to save up. Is it better to plan even? Kind of a whole constellation of things. 
Speaker 1:	And as you're thinking too and making the project, is it a one off project or you do want to do this as a living and as a career or a "career" but you want to work in this industry. Is that what's behind it too? 
Speaker 13:	I guess. Yeah. Less tied to wanting to work in an industry versus wanting to kind of go from the ground up say. Making things and showing them around which seems like you're saying that's where the industry is moving towards with the internet, etc. So yeah, not as much like you need to be pretty consistent. Because that's also how you make money right? That's like a job. So if not that then how would you recommend going about that? 
Speaker 1:	The answer is pretty much anyway you can, is the answer. Anyway that works for you. For instance, so one of the things that's interesting about YouTube right now is that you can make money on YouTube. You can make stuff and get it out there and people are going and viewing it. There is a certain threshold where they'll start paying on YouTube, which is totally different than the world has ever been. There used to be these barriers and now they are kind of breaking down these barriers so there's that element of it but answer is really just kind of, there are so many variables in that question. The answer is kind of however it works. I think the challenge more is that not to, if it's something you love to do, if you're doing it from an authentic place and you're really, it works for you to be making these things, then the other stuff won't really matter. You'll figure out how to make and get a job and need to do what you need to do. There are all kinds of different jobs you can do in the world type of thing to make a living and keep afloat. 
	I heard, Morgan Spurlock, I don't know if you ever heard him tell his story but Morgan Spurlock went to film school or whatever and he did a lot, just working these different jobs and doing these different things. Ended up going into $250,000 in debt on credit cards to try to keep a company afloat that wasn't working. He was making videos for somebody on the side and he had like $50,000. He was like should I pay the credit card? He's like nah, let's make a movie. He made Supersize Me. 
	I want to go back to craft. I want to go back to the skills, the storytelling skills because that's the most important thing. There really is a craft. You don't have to worry. Talent. People talk about talent. Woody Allen is the first to say that there are two people in the film business who have talent. Everybody else is just doing the best they can. I think there's a lot of truth to that. I think there is a lot of truth to that. You can learn how to tell stories. You can learn. There is actual ways that you can do it. Does it mean that you write the best dialogue? No, it doesn't. But it doesn't matter. If you come up with a good idea and you structure it out and you write your thing or whatever. If they like the idea, they'll buy it. They'll make it. 
Speaker 15:	How do you get from that first sentence that's like [inaudible 01:04:28]. That's the gap I'm working on. 
Speaker 1:	The hard work you mean? 
Speaker 15:	No, so you know how to tell a story. You succeeded. You built up this idea of what it is to have craft. The idea being you sell it. How do you get from having the script to selling the script? 
Speaker 1:	Right, right, right. Through pure effort. Just through pure effort. 
Speaker 15:	Just going around to different companies. 
Speaker 1:	Yes, absolutely. 
Speaker 15:	[inaudible 01:04:58]
Speaker 1:	Yes, absolutely. You'll get feedback. You can tell, that people will tell you, you know what I really like this but I don't know I'm just not ready to buy it. And that's fine. But there's a big difference between that and just nothing. No response. No nothing. Pass. Quentin Tarantino for instance is famous for telling his stories about, there is a saying out there. You can die of encouragement in Hollywood, right? It's that phase where you're getting better and you know you're getting better and everybody is telling you you're getting better but no one is willing to really put their neck on the line for you. That last part is where you sometimes have to take the ball and just step over the goal line yourself. There are a lot of stories about that.
	It's really through just not stopping I think.
Speaker 16:	What are the unions like and should we join them?
Speaker 1:	The unions? You know I can't answer that question. All I can say is, because I'm not part of a union but I can that generally the unions have been protective of their members. They are not perfect. In a business where it's very easy for people to exploit you and take advantage of you, I think the unions have been very helpful. Good benefits and pension plans and all that. Yeah before it used to be factory. Factory system. You'd go work for the corporation. That's my sense. Yes? 
Speaker 17:	You talked about getting into that writer's room and being that writer assistant. What would be your best advice to get your foot in the door there and are there opportunities for graduation internships or would you shy away maybe? 
Speaker 1:	The first one, the best way to do that is well at least know what you're trying to do. That's the first thing and keep focused on that because and right, if you really want to get in that writers room you have to be writing. You have to be learning your craft. So go back to telling your stories, learning your craft, that type of thing. I think you have a real advantage when you're coming out of school. I haven't really seen any 50 year old writer's assistants. That's an agist thing I think but I do think there is an advantage coming out of school. But I think it's staying focused. I think it's doing the research. There are X numbers of shows and show runners out there. It's all out there. It's all available. You just need to get out and make relationships in the community and just push it. Just push it and keep writing is kind of what it comes down to. 
	The internships do exist for sure. It would probably have to be a summer internship. It's a little challenging because a lot of shows aren't making their shows during the summer. They are making their stuff during the school year so this is where the location here is not helpful, on the internship front. There was an intern at The Unit I remember and that person went to school at Loyola Marymount. It might have been Middlebury, which is Sean and I's school. So, if you get an internship you might have to do it ... I don't know how that works during the school year. Does that answer your question? What else? 
Speaker 18:	In terms of just keep writing, keep writing. Are there things you might want to consider writing [inaudible 01:09:47]? You have a limited amount of time. Are there certain types of stories or kinds of content that tend to be more normal? Is there stuff that you'll show this to someone and you've written it from your heart and it's like okay this is good but no. Is there ways to focus that effort? In terms of content.
Speaker 1:	I appreciate that question. These days, I would think in terms of writing stuff you can get made. When I say get made, like, if you haven't made anything you can make with friends, you can actually shoot together because the intrinsic nature of your question is challenging because you're automatically giving power to some outside entity by saying that. And it's like well let me just not accept your assumption here and say to you that I would write stuff that you could make, either you can make on stage or that you can shoot. And think in those terms, you know? Because, that gives you limitations. The best thing you can have when you're writing is to have limitations. One of the things that they don't tell people enough when people have this question about what to write is a lot of people write stuff that you can't shoot. Well first of all they write it and they don't even think about shooting it. Sure it's nice. It's a great story but if it's $150 million dollar film. Forget it. Forget it. 
	People might like it. Look, it could be the lottery ticket, but it's a lottery game on that. So in your scenario or in this scenario that's been created, write things you can make. There are plenty of tools available to do that. That would be the content. And that way you don't have to worry about what other people are saying. You're learning. I mean that's the other thing. I would trust in your own instincts. As you are making things, you're going to make them and show them. The best thing you can do is make things and show them. Yeah, people may hate it. They may like it. You may love it. That's cool. Keep making it. Do what you love. 
	At some point, you'll just decided you're really just making things and they just connect with you and nobody else. You say I really enjoy doing this but I'm the only one that likes it. You know what I mean? You'll either change, and you'll do something else or whatever. Does that makes sense? Is that helpful?
Speaker 18:	The reason I asked the question just because you were like, in terms of becoming a writer, you show a script to people. So it does involve some interaction with someone on the outside. Even as much as you might not like that. 
Speaker 1:	Right. So in that instance, that's a very specific medium. So a writer existence in TV is you're writing TV. You're writing TV stuff. So there you are already limiting. You are either writing specs for shows or you're writing a pilot. So, that's limitation there. 
Speaker 19:	Is there something that you wish you knew before you went in? 
Speaker 1:	Yes.
Speaker 19:	That you haven't said already. 
Speaker 1:	Before I went in? Like got involved in creating things and [inaudible 01:14:17]? Yeah, I really wish I knew that I didn't have to reinvent the wheel myself. I really wish, I just had no advice, thanks, I had never come across anybody telling me that really, how am I going to say this? It always sounds terrible when I say it but it's actually really true. There's a saying amateurs borrow. Professionals steal. And really. Somebody said, look, an experienced writer, producer said the best thing you can do if you're starting out as a writer is take a show that you like, take an episode of a show that you like, and just write that episode. But when you write that episode, write it as you would write that episode. Not as they did it. 
	What is somebody going to read? Somebody is going to read this and they are either going to go, first of all nobody watches everything so they're going to go oh that aired last week? They would be like okay but it would have your spin on it. But it's the courage to do that. I always thought that's plagiarism. What is that? But that's what I wish I would have known. You know?