Host:	Hello Everyone, it is a great pleasure for me to introduce to you Dr. Tarik Hadir who is joining us from the Rumi Research Center, of Mevlana University in Konya, Turkey. Dr. Hadir, is an actual graduate of [inaudible 00:00:25] college class of 1987. Where he was a math major, before turning his interest towards religion. So perhaps, some of you would be similarly situated. 
	But I'd like to say a little about his research interests, his interests lie into [inaudible 00:00:50], Islamic philosophy, perineal philosophy, and Islamic environmentalism. Dr. Hadir received his masters degree from George Washington university. Where he studied with the pre-eminent perineal philosopher, Syed Hussain Nasser, followed by an MA in indo-muslim culture from Harvard University, before receiving his PHD in the UK at the University of Birmingham. There he wrote his dissertation on the Islamic response to our current environmental crisis.
	And today he will be talking to us about Rumi, the Quran, religious diversity, and describing to us how these things can combine to frame interfaith dialogue. So it's a great pleasure, and an honor, that we welcome our returning Alum, Dr. Tarik Hadir. Thank you.
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	[inaudible 00:01:58] in the name of god, most gracious, and most merciful.
	Well it's interesting to be back at [inaudible 00:02:07] where a lot of things have changed, not the people really, but the buildings. I was telling Ellen Ross, that I remember going to [inaudible 00:02:20] and taking a shortcut here across the field, where Coburg wasn't at that time, we had this pettish extension and German, French, and Spanish was taught here. So it's a good, interesting experience.
	Uh, It's also good to be speaking about a subject I like, without feeling, you know, tension about exams tomorrow and so forth. (laugh) 
	Which always made the experience of [inaudible 00:02:52] more difficult. The beautiful campus, I can enjoy for the first time. Which I didn't have the time to do when I was here, and I was trying to do too many things. Mathematics, Philosophy, Engineering, oh my god.
	Anyway, but, the subject again is pluralism, and I think [inaudible 00:03:14] really is the place where I began to think about plurals and ... 
	In my own life, I've taken so many different paths, over the years. I have a great deal of experience in actually experiencing different paths and even living in different cultures, for instance I was born in Bangladesh. I came here as a Freshman when I was 18, and then lived in America for the next, many, maybe 27 years, maybe. And then I went to Turkey where I live now. So this is my third life in terms of cultures that I've been exposed to.
	Alright, thank you very much for inviting me, to [inaudible 00:04:10] in the religion department. And thank you all for coming, and spending your time here, because I know time is extremely precious and now there's probably nothing that is as precious as time. And the fact that you are giving me this time, away from your time to do homework's and prepare for your exams, is a precious gift, and I really thank you very much, because I know exactly where you are, because I've been in this position before.
	Anyway, so pluralism. Where do I begin? On the train, I changed the approach to how I would present and now I may, completely mix up things, but I was assured by Professor [inaudible 00:04:47] that you will not figure out, you will not know where I'm mixing up things. But I doubt, I know some of [inaudible 00:04:52] students are extremely sharp.
	Okay, religious pluralism, you know we live in a world with many different religions, that's a given. It's not our position to deny, or to accept, it is already there. We have Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Zen, and so forth. So the question is how do we live with other religion, with this great diversity of religious traditions. And it's important because, religion for, I mean even now after 200, 300 years, of enlightenment and Renaissance, and scientific revolution, and enlightenment, religion continues to be a central part of the identities of the majority of the human population still. And until enlightenment, or even 100 years ago it was probably the essential for almost everybody. I mean the vast, vast majority. So it continues to be a central aspect of who human beings are, who they are, how they define themselves, etc.
	And, in this modern age where we have to intermingle with other people, we have to work with people of other cultures, people belonging to other religious traditions, so inter-faith dialogue is increasingly more and more important. 100 years ago, 200 years ago it was not as important. We didn't have to, I mean people from Bangladesh, were never really coming to New York and working with Christians and Jews and Hindus. I lived in New York for 13 years, I know how plural it is. How it is to live with diverse groups of people, from every country on earth. 
	This was one great gift of America, to me. That after I came to America, I met people from everywhere. First at [inaudible 00:06:47] then in New York for 13 years. And I was also exposed, and I studied the different religious traditions, and different philosophies. 
	Anyway, inter-faith dialogue, I've thought about inter-faith dialogue. What does make sense, what doesn't make sense. What's interesting is, the way inter-faith dialogue is conducted today, and the people who are interested, themselves, they are often not very religious. So that makes inter-faith dialogue a bit problematic, because if it's to be a genuine inter-faith dialogue, it must be among genuine representatives of each tradition. What was prevalent in pre-modern religious attitudes. I think these were the main attitudes, less so before 18th Century. Until then, enlightenment less then. 
	You could say, only my religion is true, all other religions are false, or my religion is true, no need to know about other religions beyond what my religion says about them. Maybe there are other variations of this, but these I think were prevalent positions in the pre-modern times.
	And this did not actually lend to inter-faith dialogue that much, and it was probably not that important also. People didn't mingle as much, that's one reason. However this is not to say that in many areas, in India, in Egypt, at least in the Islamic world, because [inaudible 00:08:20] according to what we know about Islamic history was like the pre-dominant stream of Islam, across the Muslim world, until maybe about 100 years ago. As I will show you briefly, it has an opening to other religious traditions, but I'll not go into that right now.
	Anyway, so this is a prevalent pre-modern, religious attitude. After the enlightenment, and in modern times, what we find I think are something like this, new attitude after the enlightenment. 
	Different religions say different things, but if religions were from an objective truth, they would all be saying the same thing. This is an argument, so they must all be false, if religions came from one truth out there, why are religions so different? Actually Karl Marx made this argument, and in claiming that religions are rubbish, false, all religions are false, because if they came from one truth, if there was one god, they couldn't be so different.
	Here's another possibility, number 2. All religions are about the same values and same ultimate truth. It is the forms that separate them. Hence if we can ignore or reduce formal aspects of religions, we may bring about greater harmony in the world. You see the first attitude, I accept scientistic attitude, because this kind of developed after the scientific revolution, after enlightenment, which took Newtonian world view as the basis of what you can certainly trust as true, and these are nine levelings, you may dispute, there may be other levels. Third, possibility, nowadays, in post-modern attitude. There is no ultimate truth, different religions are just different meta-narratives, and perspectives on life and the universe.
	Now what's interesting is, okay, people can have their views, but this does not lend to genuine inter-faith dialogue. So the first, definitely denies the validity of any religion, because if they are different, they are all false, so why an inter-faith dialogue between false things? Same with the third one, there's no ultimate truth, in post-modern attitude, everything is just meta-narratives, so again it undermines the very basis of religion, because, every religion believes there is an objective truth. Out there or in here, you can say it in any way you want. So this post-modern attitude denies the very foundation of religion. In the new age attitude, there is an ultimate truth, and values are all same, this is cool, but they don't like the forms so much. They think forms create trouble. Forms are that which separates people, so if we can ignore or somehow reduce the formal aspects of religions, we can have more peace between people.
	But again, the second option undermines religion, and because the vast majority of people in the world do not buy into any of these three options, if not vast majority, at least the majority. So if we want to have genuine inter-faith dialogue, which I think should be between genuine Christians, Christians who believe in Christianity, Jews that believe in Judaism and practices. Muslims who believe, and practices. If there was to be a dialogue between them, that would be a true inter-faith dialogue and in that dialogue, communities from different religions would know about each other. Oh you are a Jew, or you are a Christian, you are a Muslim. How do you see this thing? Not just between academics also, because religion is not just concept, but it's also practice, and often in practice we know the efficacy of a particular tradition.
	So, for a genuine dialogue, there must be genuine representatives. Otherwise, even if we have a nice talk and we all agree with each other, the vast majority of people out there will not take us seriously. Okay. 
	So the question is, is there another vision that allows for genuine inter-faith dialogue. Is there a vision out there, and I believe, that what the Quran or the Rumi has. I didn't want to mention the Prophet Muhammad, [inaudible 00:13:08] his own example, but these actually provide a model where you see that different traditions are being respected and accepted with all their forms intact. While accepting their all from god, but at the same time Recognizing that they are different.
	It kind of provides a model, that allows people to come together, without having to reduce the formal aspects, without having to ignore their formal aspects, and still believe that we can have a dialogue between us.
	Now first I will begin with Rumi, because people love Rumi more than Atlas in the west, they love Rumi more than the Quran, so I want to go the easy way. What did Rumi say about religious diversity, this is the summery of Rumi's position on religious diversity, but before you read this, you can read it, but I have to tell the story behind this one.
	This is from Ma'nawi which is Rumi's most famous collection of verses. In this story, Prophet Moses, peace be unto him, comes across and encounters an illiterate shepard adoring God. And the prophet hears this illiterate shepard say oh god, I love you so much, I want to comb your hair, wash your feet, bring you meal, tie your shoes and so forth. And Prophet Moses heard this and went, oh my god what are you doing? What are you doing, do you think God is your uncle? God is not like a human being, he's the creator of this great infinite universe. How can you address him like that, he has no form and so forth. You know, the way the horizon is, the view of god is in general. 
	And this poor shepard he was shocked, he had heard this guy is a great prophet, and oh my god, I wasted time, maybe. He stops his adoration, he gets confused, he gets up and he walks away. At this point, God turns at him and says, You. What are you doing? So this is what Rumi said, God told Moses. And in this we all also see Rumi's view of religious diversity, what Rumi's view of religious diversity is. So god told Moses, rebuked Moses, you have parted my servant from me. Did you come as a prophet to unite, or did you come to separate. I have bestowed on everyone a special way of acting, and to everyone a form of expression. What may be honey to one, is poison to another. I am independent of all purity and impurity. I did not order in divine worship that I might make any profit, no that I might do a kindness to my servants, in the Hindus, the idiom of hymn is praiseworthy. In the symbiance the idiom of sin. I look not at the tongue and the speech, I look at the state of the heart. On and on.
	So this is it, what you get from here, first of all, God in the Quran, is a [inaudible 00:16:24] self-sufficient, he doesn't have any need. He does not need our worship, if we worship it's for our way of existing, and God has provided different religious traditions for different communities, so they may try to approach God. That's one thing. And what is right for group A, may not be right for group B.
	So the forms of the religions can be quite different. What ultimately comes is the state of your heart. Do you love god? Are you kind to others? Are you loving? Are you generous, and so forth. The quality of your hearts. I look not at the tongue, and the speech, I look at the state of the heart, okay. You can be speaking what ever language, in verbally, but the state of your heart is what God is looking at. So this is the summary of how Rumi sees it. Now like I said before, you know, Rumi was a Sufi, and he was a great Sufi and the Sufis say wonderful things, but when it comes to real Islam. You know, its a little different.
	But I want to tell you, I think a lot of you know, because [inaudible 00:17:39] students have read everything, at least that's what I thought when I was here. Anywhere else there would be straight As, you know. We had this tee shirt, I don't know if it still exists, do you guys still have that? You see it's a really popular tee shirt, because it's the reality. First, inclusive Quran [inaudible 00:17:58] verses. Not all the verses are inclusive, but these are, and I've not quoted every one of them, but trust me there are many of this kind, but I've chosen some key ones to convince you. But even if you don't convince, if you are not convinced by what I said today, at least you will know that what we are discussing today is quite different from what the extremists on all sides are proposing, about how all with our differences between human communities, including different biological communities. How we should live in this Earth that we all share.
	For every community there has been a messenger from God. This is a direct quotation from the Quran, it is not an interpretation a Sufi or any other kind. Truly, those who believe, and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians, and whoever believes in God, and the day, and performs virtuous deeds, surely their reward is with their Lord and no fear should come upon them, and neither shall be greed. So every messenger sent to every nation on earth, and then specifically, Jews, Christians, Sabians, another group that existed in those days, not anymore. And if that doesn't make you happy enough, then whoever believes in God, in the last day, and performs virtuous deeds. Last day here, can mean whoever believes you have to account for your actions, accountability, the judgment that if you do bad things that you'll pay for it, if you do good things, you'll be rewarded from it, or that it'll be a credit to you, however you want to see it.
	So, all these people, anybody who believes in God. Believes in accountability of actions and performs virtuous deeds, all saved. This is the Quranic position, and this has verse has been repeated at least two times, and there are other verses that point at the same direction. Now some historically, many commentators have said, oh no these verses are abrogated, but then there are other commentators that have said, no abrogation applies to legal rulings, the details of [inaudible 00:20:23] are not the promises that God makes. Otherwise why is it in the Quran anyway? My perspective is, that if it had no meaning, it would not be in the Quran. But there are definitely, there has been throughout Islamic history, who believe this is true. That this has not been canceled. And notice, one of the verses where this appears, is 112th revelation. 112th means this was almost at the end of the prophets career. It did not change. There are 114 chapters in the Quran, 112 is just maybe one year before he passed away, and the revelation verses stopped. Before he died.
	Now the next, this verse kind of summarizes the whole approach. And you will see how similar it is to what you saw in Rumi's verse, for each we have appointed a law and a path. And if God had wished, he would have made you one people, but he had made you as you are. That he may put you to test in what he has given you. So vie with one another in good works. Unto god you will all be brought back, and he will then tell you about those things wherein you differed. Okay. So here again you see, God is one and he has seen in different ways, different, the forms are different. And it may not be clear to us, but if we do good works, and we draw nearer and nearer to God, so lest they fear God realized, or self-realized, now we may figure out what are the differences.
	It may not make, the differences my not make sense to us. Why are these differences? But once we get to the top, once we are God-realized, self-realized, we may realize, or if we die we have no option, things will be opened up. The Prophet, peace be unto him, says that human beings are asleep, when they die they awake. So as if some veils are opened and we see the reality as it really is. 
	Okay, so this verse has confirmed the last point that Rumi made, only the heart counts, only he will be happy who comes before God with a heart free of evil. Just to paraphrase, just the same thing that Prophet Mohammed said, God only looks upon the quality of your heart.
	Now this does not mean, that Rumi and the Quran, do not criticize other religions. Of course the Quran says that we have not mentioned the names of all the prophets, all the messengers. Some we mentioned, others we haven't. So there is no mention of Buddha for instance, or Krishna, or Rama, or any of them from other traditions, but Abrahamic traditions, there are a lot of mentions of Moses and Jesus and all the big league prophets. 
	In fact in the Quran, in one instance there is a criticism of Judaism but it doesn't apply anymore. But otherwise there is no criticism of Jewish theology. There's a lot of criticism of Christian theology, but on one aspect really, any perceived deviation from viewing God as one ultimate reality. The Quran, and Rumi, definitely reject the idea of trinity as an ultimate reality. Or if trinity implies God is one of three. They categorically reject the idea of Jesus being son of God, if that means a God begetting a person like, human beings have children. Otherwise there is no criticism. Of Jewish and Christian customs, in religious forms, rituals, so forth. Sometimes there might be, if again it is related to that perceived deviation. From seeing the ultimate reality as more than one.
	So this is an important point, so yes there are criticisms, but about the forms of the religions. For Rumi, and the Quran, the essential message of all the religions are this, ultimate reality in metaphysical terms is one, in regular theological terms, God is one. The ultimate purpose, admission to God. Or you might say purity of heart, either way. But these, according to Rumi and Quran, all authentic religions would have these two things. And you see a Quranic verse confirming that exactly, we never sent any messenger without having revealed to him, that there is no deity besides me, therefor, he should worship me alone.
	Now, what is interesting is, that in spite of the theological criticism. In spite of the theological difference between Islam and Christianity, and mind you, I told you there is really no criticism about Judaism. If there are any criticisms of Jews, it's about political reasons, not theological criticisms. There is one aspect, but it's not relevant to any of this, I don't want to mention it. So in spite of theological criticisms, in spite of theological differences, you find in the Quran, there's a recognition that the Jews and the Christians, worship one God, the same god as the Muslims do.
	So you see verse like this, every religious community faces a direction of it's own. Of which God is the focal point, I mean the word is Allah in Arabic, but same idea. If god had not abled people to defend themselves against one another. Monasteries and Churches and Synagogues and Mosques, in which God name is abandonedly extolled, would surely have been destroyed. So there is recognition, that in Monasteries, and in Churches and in Synagogues, just as in Mosques, its God's name, I mean God being worshiped, God's name being celebrated.
	So this gives Muslims, an opening. Now those who you might call fundamentalists, they are going to look at these verses and they will want to interpret it in other ways, and they want bring some other verses and to not want to interpret them in light of these verses. What is really happening I think, is that people have their own ideas about what should be and should not, and they choose some verses from the Quran and they say, hey look, this is from the Quran and we must do this. But they ignore some of these verses. And the interpretations, they may choose some interpreters and not other interpreters, and so forth. 
	And you see Rumi also has the same idea, in every religion the ritual prayer is different, but faith does not change in any of them. It's in ordered states, it's orientation and so forth, are all the same. So there is the recognition that even though, and notice this is not just about Judaism and Christianity, remember Rumi said in the first verse I quoted, Hindus, the idiom of hymn is praiseworthy. So it's not just Judaism and Christianity, there's a recognition that in spite of our disagreements with exactly how to view god, or the ultimate reality. There is a recognition that these different people are seeking God. Worshiping God. So that is the opening for Muslims. It is a totally valid opening, that Muslims can make use of, in any inter-faith dialogue. So this approach allows for difference between religions, and the point of agreement that they all came from the same god. And this is very important, in any inter-faith dialogue, it's important to emphasize what is common. And that is what is, and that is from an Islamic point of view. That all religions come from one truth.
	For instance, I and you are two different human beings. You may look different, you may believe in different things, you may not have gone to [inaudible 00:28:45], but I cannot deny your humanity. So we cannot deny, that essentially these are religions. We cannot deny, even if we disagree on some surface things, even if outwardly we're different, we can't deny that these are not, we can't say that these are not religions, only my religion is religion from God. And I want to point out, [inaudible 00:29:12] Sufi's are wonderful they have gone beyond forms. Rumi being one of the most important spokesperson for Sufism, to him forms are very important. One of the things about Rumi is he always said that nothing is without a purpose. So if the exposition of meanings, I'm reading out his verse here, if the exposition of meanings were sufficient, then the creation of the world would be vain and useless.
	If love for God were only thought and meaning, the form of fasting and prayer would not exist. That's a cute little argument. And he says forms witness your love for each other, we give gifts to each other. It's not those things, but those things that are witness to our love for each other. So likewise, in a sense, God gives us a form of worship, and we return it by sort of adoring him through that form. It's like lovers giving gifts to each other. That is Rumi's point, or way of explaining. But to him forms are important, that's the key, I want to point out. And forms are different, he recognizes that forms are different. For instance wine is okay for a Christian, not okay for a Muslim. And for Muslims, it may be dangerous, I mean spiritually speaking. That wine may not be, it may kind of violate, it may kind of undermine the integrity of the path. And like that verse I quoted in the Quran. It said even if you don't understand the differences, when you come to God, God will explain to you, just right now, do good works.
	You will not understand until you come to the final point, so Rumi is basically saying the same thing, how are you going to unify religions? On the day of judgment it will be unified. But here in this world, which means the world of multiplicity, the world of forms. That is impossible, because everybody has a different desire and want. In the world of multiplicity, everything is different, everyone of us here are different. Not only in appearance, in ideas, there are lots of differences. What do you want to pursue, and stuff so, but we're all human beings, that's our common thing. If we didn't have much in common, I couldn't possibly communicate with you about anything. 
	Like the fact that I can communicate with almost anybody from the street, that shows our common humanity. Something, even a person I've never met, if I can relate that means something in him is in common with something in me, and a great deal in fact, almost all of me and that other person is the same.
	Okay, so finally this great variety may be explained in this one verse, we sent no messengers, the Quran says, except with the Masters in his own peoples language, so that he might make the truth clear unto him. Now one thing I didn't explain, is in Islam there's also belief that God has created the universe to reveal himself. And because he's the infinite one, the infinite one cannot reveal himself by just one creation, if God only created me, if any of you believed in God, you would probably stop believing in God. But God being the infinite one, is infinitely creating at each moment. More and more creations, the Quran says in poetic terms, if all the oceans and all the seas were turned into ink, and the trees turned into pens, you would still not be able to finish describing, glorifying God. 
	Now, given that God is engaged in these infinitely different types of creation, we have different climates, different cultures, different human beings and communities with different inclinations. So if God wanted to be known as the one, how would he make himself known? By giving not the same revelation to everybody, but different ones according to what fits, how to catch this community. How to get this community towards me, and know me, from God's point of view. So that is an explanation, this is like a language. God sent in the language of the people, language doesn't just mean this language you speak, it means a communication.
	So the Quran is very queer about this, God sent messages, in the, to the messengers in his own people's, in the different tongues, not just in Arabic. It could be as many languages as there is, not just spoken but as different human communities with different inclinations, they have been given messages accordingly. To make them realize the same deal, that truth is one, God is one. 
	So this is the end of my presentation, not the whole presentation, I'm sorry. (laugh) The Quranic, and Rumi's view of religious diversity. And I believe this model allows for dialogue without having to deny each other's form. And I think this would be more of a genuine dialogue than the one we have today often, where we think the forms are creating trouble. If we see forms coming from the divine, forms also [inaudible 00:35:09] absolute value, if it coming from the absolute, [inaudible 00:35:15] absolute value.
	I want to turn next to perineal philosophy, because perineal philosophy is really a 20th century intellectual movement, mainly by Muslim intellectuals, who were also Sufi's generally. Actually all of them. And it kind of follows the Quranic model, but it makes them attempt to see religions globally, and see how we can appreciate each of their traditions. What all, is symbols and rituals and everything. And this is mainly their perspective, why is there a diversity of religions, first they believe there is an absolute truth. Second, they believe that there is an archetype for everything in that absolute truth. Sort of like platonic ideas, if you've heard of platonic ideas, probably most of you did. So every tree, human being, they all have kind of an idea. It's like, I'm an architect, and I have an idea of what kind of building I want to build, and then I manifest that in action, but this idea of the building, like Goldberg, and I have a design in my mind. So in a sense, it's like God has a plan for everything, like a tree, oh this is a pattern and God says, okay let it now manifest, and it manifests as tree. It unfolds in time. So everything has an archetype in that sense.
	And religions too, have an archetype. This is the perspective of perineal philosophy. They also often call themselves traditionalists, why? Because they believe in practicing the whole of tradition, while respecting other traditions. So according to them, there are two reasons why religions are different. First differences along archetypes for religion, so God has one, like Islam has one archetype. It has certain potentials that maybe that Christianity doesn't. And Christianity has another archetype, it has certain potentials that others do not. And [inaudible 00:37:24] and so forth. And the secondary thing is the differences among human communities, which I mentioned earlier, because God being of infinite nature, and infinitely different creations. You have different cultures and so forth. So there's two things, differences in Archetypes, and differences in human communities. Kind of unfold in historical time, what we experience as religions. And for different reasons, there are different ... the differences are not only determined by the conditions on the Earth, but they are also like a divine archetype for each religion, which fits into these different conditions. So this is basically why the belief, there are differences. It's a little similar to the Quranic position.
	And what this says, what people often say, now they're so different, they're so different, religions, they're so different. But if you look at from an inner point of view, from a metaphysical angle, there are certain principles which are not exactly same from one tradition to another, but there is sort of a correspondence. So religious differences are often [inaudible 00:38:34] unless you are only looking outwardly. Inwardly if you look from the point of metaphysical principles, you see a pattern emerging. It is not exact, but they correspond to different traditions. So beyond being, pure being, etc etc. If somebody asks a question we can go into that. 
	Also, in the world among different religions there are two types of founders. You have a prophetic model, where God sends the revelation through the, I said Logos, Logos is the creative aspect of God. To human beings with, to Prophet Moses, God sends the revelation, with inwardly, with united with that creative aspect of God. Because the prophets we believe were in a way, united with God. Inwardly. But outwardly they are not conceived as God. They are united with the creative aspect, the creative intelligence of God, but outwardly they are not conceived of as God. 
	And the other pattern is incarnation. So, this creative aspect kind of descends as a human being. So in Hinduism, we have Avatars. In Christianity we have Jesus the Christ, God coming to earth. What perineal philosophy does really is to find a pattern, and see how we might make sense. Even though there are so many differences. How there are things in one tradition that is not exactly one to one, with others, but how there is a correspondence. For example in Christianity, we have Jesus' is the word of God. In the Quran it's not, Muhammad is not the word of God, but it is the Quran, a word of God. It is the Quran. But in Christianity it is Jesus. 
	So there is the idea of word of God, but it's manifesting in different ways. In Christianity, the word of god is born of a virgin woman, Mary. In Islam, the word of god, the Quran, is manifested from an illiterate prophet, a prophet who didn't know how to read or write, or was not educated in the worldly sense. He's known as an illiterate prophet. In that sense that he did not go to school for the world, but he learned, the virgin nature of him that gave conception, or conceived, or received that revelation.
	So there is that correspondence, it may have meaning, or similar meaning in different traditions. This is, perineal philosophy provides a way of making sense of the differences. And it also, speaks about different families of religions. So you have Abrahamic traditions, Judaism, Christianity, Islam. Indian religions, Buddhism, Hinduism. Shamanic religions, Abrahamic and Indian, oh you have the prophetic model and Avatar. Shamanic model and primal model are kind of similar, in Shamanic model what happens is the founders, I mean there can be many founders really, but they can go in and out of ultimate reality and come back, like if you have red, black [inaudible 00:41:59] go on a vision quest, goes in and out, receives messages. It's sort of a prophetic model, not exactly in the sense that prophetic is used in the Abrahamic tradition, but it is in this world view, of Shamanic world view they are getting messages from the ultimate reality.
	Perineal perspective also speaks about relatively absolute, that the forms of each tradition have their absoluteness within that tradition. For instance, there are a lot of universes, in this world, I mean in this universe. In the Milky Way we have heard there are millions and millions of universes and thousands and thousands, and each one of them has a sun, but if you ask me, what is the [inaudible 00:42:46] point of the sun that I know. Even when I know that there is many many suns, many many, universes. In my universe, this sun, is the sun. So in the Christian world view, and mine too, until modern times. People only had one world view. It was the world view of religion. [inaudible 00:43:08] Except maybe a few hundred people here and there. But the vast vast majority of people in the Christian world, believed in the Christian world view, or Islamic world view and so forth.
	The religious world view of Islam, of Prophet Mohammed is the model. Within the religious world view of Christianity, Jesus Christ is the model. Within the Buddhist world view, Buddha is the model. From a perineal perspective, the relatively absolute, not the absolute. However from within the tradition it is the absolute, it is the absolute way. No one goes to father, except through Jesus. Of course we don't believe that in Islam, but we say that God says in the Quran, if you love God, follow me, saint, or prophet. If you love God follow me, and God will love you, so for us the model of Mohammed is ... but we don't deny any of the prophets, we don't deny their customs, and outer practices of any of the religions. 
	So this actually is kind of obvious, and knowing who, where the people who formulated this perineal perspective, they're almost without exception, informed by Islamic mysticism and the Quran, Islamic traditions, and Muslims. It is kind of borrowing, to create a model that others can contemplate. On how we may live with different faiths, with different traditions, and respect each of the traditions in their entirety. And have a dialogue, a genuine dialogue. I think that is where a good alternative to what we have, where we don't even accept the validity of the tradition very often. 
	That's all I have to say, thank you very much.
	So if you have questions, yes?
Female 1:	[inaudible 00:45:12] 
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	Mention one polytheistic religion. Tell me one that is left, Hinduism. Well, [inaudible 00:45:20] is ultimately is not, ultimately, okay.
Female 1:	[inaudible 00:45:24]
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	Indian religions, you mean Hinduism, you see, its how you perceive, and if you perceive things in one way. In Hinduism, ultimately things begin with nirguana Brahman, and nirguana Brahman is one, then you have saguna Brahman, and all is different. Actually, I know about Hinduism as much as I know about Islam. So I have no problem with it for these reason, in Hinduism, you have this nirguana Brahman, which is one. You have non-dualitive for instance, Shankara's chariots [inaudible 00:45:57]. That's the ultimate, which perineal philosophy requires. There is one ultimate reality. And when you talk about different gods in Islam, we say God is one, but we call God by at least 99 different names. These are different aspects of divinity, in fact, God is like this light, and the different colors in light. We don't see God directly, we see God's qualities being reflected in you, in the flowers, in the trees. So it's like the light, we don't see light as it is, we see it through the reflecting glass. The seven colors coming out. Light is colorless, but we see everything colors. There is beauty, beautiful things.
	So the difference is how you look at it. In Hinduism, there's different aspects of the divine, are presented by different forms. In Islam, we don't present it in statues, in forms. But we still make distinctions, you know, Allah the loving one is not exactly the same as Allah. There's a little distinction of quality, but it's referring to the same god. So yes, but if you ask any serious Hindus, do you believe in one God, they all say yes. There is only one God. Like in Bengali, my mother, and also in Hindi, Bhagwan, Bhagwan is one. Bhagwan comes in different forms, fine, but Bhagwan is one. Ganesha and everybody else. That is one answer I gave out. Here, some other questions please?
Female 2:	[inaudible 00:47:41] 
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	Yes, yes. Let me speak about Buddhism for instance. Which is a major, can be a major problem because they don't talk about God, they don't talk about revelation. Okay. Now perineal philosophy sees, revelation doesn't have to just be from Gabriel, or from outside. It can be also from inside. Illumination. If, Buddha sitting under the bodhi tree didn't have a revelation, why, why was he like a changed man, what happened? Something from within illuminated him. That is, [inaudible 00:48:18] perspective, that is also a kind of revelation. It's about, you don't have to cede everything from a judeo-christian perspective, do they call it God or not God? So perineal philosophy in a way, helps you to see God in different lights. So in Buddhism, what is real? Nothing in the transient world is real, that is true. But there is something real, that is Nirvana, or Sirvienta. And if these were not real, if you say oh they are not real. Then why do we bother with this at all? Nirvana is real. Nirvana is real, if it wasn't real we wouldn't bother with it.
	So God in every tradition, is what is ultimately real. Okay. So from that perspective, yes there is God and revelation. You just say it in different terms.
	Yes?
Female 3:	[inaudible 00:49:11]
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	Right, well maybe you came late. What I meant was, that you actually believe and practice the religion, so you can be a witness. That your religion indeed, it transforms your heart. Then you can be taken seriously by a vast majority of Hindus, Jewish, or Islamic, whatever community you belong to. 
	So then the dialogue between representatives as such, can be taken seriously by the vast majority of people who practice these religions. As a genuine, inter-faith dialogue where different representatives of other traditions are learning about my tradition, because, I'm a genuine representative.
	Yes?
Speaker 6:	[inaudible 00:49:56]
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	Yeah, I think you are right, there is a problem there right now, but we have to recognize that what binds that, within one tradition. Of course, first of all the perineal perspective is saying all different traditions, Islam or Hinduism, which appears radically different on the surface, but inwardly are very similar actually. 
	Within Islamic tradition, we believe in the same Quran, we believe in the same Prophet and so on and on. There's much more in common between different traditions. So perineal philosophy is not into, you know, calling people non-Muslims, if they don't exactly fit into this model, but it is as far as I know, accepted within the variation. Like human beings, within any one community, within any Islamic community there can be people with different ideas, different understandings. 
	Yes?
Female 4:	[inaudible 00:50:53]
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	How the archetype unfolds in historical times. It can unfold. Let's say you have a good idea, a good idea can in time, in different cultures, and in different historical time, unfold in a particular way. But it doesn't have to be evolving, it is adapting to different traditions, different changes in history, to return at all times to recognize the one reality.
Speaker 8:	[inaudible 00:51:26]
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	Actually that particular verse, that was about a year before the Prophet passed away.
Speaker 8:	[inaudible 00:51:34]
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	No, not exactly, yeah. Because sometimes in the same chapter, we have some verses from one time, other verses from another time. But still, the order of revelation is more or less okay. This particular list that I have just ...
Speaker 8:	[inaudible 00:51:54]
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	No, No, not that, that's why, that particular verse was ... Chapter number 5. In chronological order it was, 112th of revelation. But it's not, those numbers are [inaudible 00:52:09]
	This can be confusing for those who may not know this aspect. And that's why I actually wrote it down, this 72nd revelation or whatever. A reminder for me actually, I don't want to confuse you with so much data.
	Yes?
Speaker 9:	[inaudible 00:52:31]
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	I'm not sure if I understand your position exactly, but how does it, how do we apply it. First of all, conceptually if we can accept such a model, where the difference in forms are accepted as valid from different perspectives, as also descending from absolute truth. So Let's say, the Cross, the symbol of Christianity. Jesus Christ being the relatively absolute model, and the cross is related to Jesus Christ, and his history his life. So the Cross also has a relatively absolute quality within Christianity. So if we can, these are like keys, intellectual keys, by which we may think of religion globally. Think how, accept, we may see a different perspective. It is a kind of intellectual venture, but these are like keys to different ways of seeing religions, and not just, oh this religion is so different from that religion and so ...
	Just like I was talking to you about Hinduism, and Buddhism, and Islam for instance. 
Speaker 10:	[inaudible 00:53:48]
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	What is an authentic religion? Authentic religion is like there's an ultimate reality, like I said here. There is an ultimate reality and a revelation in a sense descends, whether this comes from inside, deep down, a reality beyond what you can sense with your ordinary senses. Or your ordinary rationality, there is a belief, an actually, an awareness of this ultimate reality. Because, all the prophets and the saints, spoke about it. Why do we believe that, just like you believe in the scientists. 
Speaker 10:	[inaudible 00:54:26]
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	No I wouldn't, but, I'm not actually doing that. What I'm saying is, if people say, how do you know there is an ultimate truth? How do you know? We know because the prophets and saints have said it, and they've shown us ways of experiencing that, just like now for instance. Do you believe that this earth revolves around the sun, or moves around the sun, 18,000 miles per second I think. Did you know that? 18,000 miles per second we move. Do you have any proof? You don't. Let's say E=MC2 you've heard of this formula right, do you have any proof? No. But you believe in it, because Einstein said it or some scientist said it. But most people have no clue about how to prove it.
	Too many things about science yes, I mean if I drop something it will fall, that is kind of obvious. But how the computer works, you have no idea. The scientists come tell you, and you vaguely understand, as long as it works, I believe in the scientists.
Speaker 11:	[inaudible 00:55:31]
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	No I'm not, I'm saying, both are actually same. We have beliefs in science, and we have beliefs in religion, and both can be proven in their given ways. In science, you prove through things outside, you can repeat an experiment. Not in every case, for instance in the case of evolution, it can not be repeated. 
	But when it comes to religion, the proof cannot be demonstrated out there. You might get an inkling, but it can be realized in the heart. And this is what all the saints and prophets have said. And what they say is, that if you can get rid of anger, hatred, envy, jealousy, greed, pride, then your heart becomes pure, and the heart becomes ... And this is the key, to understanding the difference between science and religion. Heart becomes an instrument of vision. In Islam, we say, 'ayn al qalb, the eye of the heart. It sees infinitely more, it is like God seeing things. In Hinduism, they call it our third eye, and in different traditions, in [inaudible 00:56:35] for instance, in the heart there is something that is unclouded and it perceives. 
	Even Plato said it, in [inaudible 00:56:47] I think, that rationality, the ordinary rationality is different from intellectus, which perceives. Thomas Aquinas and the scholastics also said this, many times. So there is a proof when you purify your heart, if you can get rid of anger, hatred, envy, jealousy, greed, pride, so forth. The heart becomes an instrument of vision, which, by which gives you the proof of what the prophets and saints said.
	Just, well if you need the proof, if you want that heart, you can get a ... the definition for authentic religion, is if you believe, or if the religion claims that has come from that ultimate truth. And if there has been people in the tradition that indeed, confirming that yes, there is an ultimate truth, then it is an authentic religion. So Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism. These traditions at least, these are authentic religions. Because they believe in an absolute reality, and then they believe that ultimate goal is purification of the heart, or submitting to that reality. 
	If reality is one, then we have no other choice than to submit to it, what else are you going to do with this? If reality is one, we must conform to reality. Reality can not be too, we can not believe in two orders of reality.
	I always love questions, because when I'm asked a difficult question, it forces me to search for the answer. 
Speaker 11:	[inaudible 00:58:24]
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	Well this is the criteria, do they believe in an absolute truth? Do they believe the ultimate truth is one? That's the number one thing, if a particular tradition does not, then we have to think that maybe there is a problem here. If you can think of one, if you can think of one, I'm not sure of an authentic one, but I cannot think of one, but ... Every other day there can be a new teacher and say many things, that you know, you will migrate to this planet called Kiron or something, ultimately Kiron is God. Or there is Kiron then there is moon and this too, can ... I can sort of cook up some meta-narrative of how things came about. And I would say by this criteria, that would not be true religion. For religion to be authentic according to this model, there must be one ultimate truth. Ultimate reality. 
Speaker 12:	[inaudible 00:59:29]
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	I'm not sure what exactly Scientologists ... I know Tom Cruise is ... because I don't know Scientology very well other criteria for an authentic tradition would be, if there is what we call in Islam a [inaudible 00:59:48] a blessing on the path. So if a tradition is real, then in time I produces saintly human beings. I don't know if there is any saintly Scientologists, except Tom Cruise. (laugh). 
	Yeah I mean, we can't judge a religion too much, except some things that may really cross the line, and you know Scientology is only like forty years old maybe. Well, we'll see. We'll see, I don't know about Scientology. 
Host:	Well, thank you for coming, thank you all for coming.
Dr. Tarik Hadir:	[inaudible 01:00:21]